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Ethel
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Posted: Sat 26 Mar , 2005 7:04 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
I noticed that in coming up with 'the rules' there was some discussion about how this would affect people who post from work. And I saw two threads at least, whose titles arguably violated rule #4. I am not personally offended by sexual material or nudity (your pic is still showing in one of your posts, btw), but I can tell you right now just from what I read there last night that I could lose my job if I gave this web address to my students. That's less a matter of being inappropriate to a work-place than it is a matter of being inappropriate to the professor-student relationship ... but ... I wouldn't give this address to any of my colleagues either.
This is an excellent point. Since I never go into the forum, I hadn't thought of it in that way. But I too could be fired for posting here from work. I imagine a lot of people could. That was never a consideration with TORC. I have just realized I will need to stop visiting this place from work. Probably true for a lot of people. Worthy of a sticky warning, I would think.


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sat 26 Mar , 2005 8:05 pm
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Well, I must say that is disappointing to hear. Personally, given the choice of having the ToE forum or not limiting the ability of people like Ethel and Jnyusa to be here, I would choose the latter.


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Ethel
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Posted: Sat 26 Mar , 2005 8:20 pm
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Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
Well, I must say that is disappointing to hear. Personally, given the choice of having the ToE forum or not limiting the ability of people like Ethel and Jnyusa to be here, I would choose the latter.
I can post from home, V. I just can't visit from work - we keep detailed logs on websites visited. It would take someone deciding to have a look at the site and then looking into the England forum to get me in trouble. Not all that likely, but not a chance I care to take now I've realized it. :)


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satch
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Posted: Sat 26 Mar , 2005 8:29 pm
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Iavas wrote:
I joined a closed board that noone else could read. Therefore I assumed I could say things that would not be read outside of the board. Part of the allure of the board was that you didn't have to self-discipline yourself as much.
But that doesn't give us the right to say whatever the hell we feel like about whoever. And sure it's closed, but would it still feel the same if there were 1000 members? I know even now it doesn't feel particularly closed to me, as I don't know many people here.

I'm watching what I say more now then I did when I joined - not because I feel like I have to prove myself to anyone or anything like that, but because it's common courtesy not to mouth off about anything I feel like... just 'cause I can.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sat 26 Mar , 2005 8:32 pm
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Isn't England locked off? So that even if we were open, lurkers or people checking out the URL wouldn't be able to look inside?


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sat 26 Mar , 2005 10:21 pm
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Yes, that's true Prim.

My issue is that I would like to be able to share the site eventually with others who would be interested in the kinds of discussion we have in the book and movie forum, but my students are over 18, for example, and there would be nothing to keep them from registering and gaining access to England, and nothing to keep them from reporting to the Department Head or the Dean that Professor A. - had given them a link to a 'hot' site. :)

I'm sure I would take all kinds of crap for that and, since I'm an adjunct I have no doubt they would be looking to replace me asap. So this is not a link I would ever give to my students or to my colleagues either. I'm not in danger of being 'discovered' for being here because I do all of my posting from home. I only work use the net at school when I have a lot of articles to download.

Jn

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sat 26 Mar , 2005 11:22 pm
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Jn, I do hope we'll discuss ToE at some point. I guess it's a blind spot I have--I'm literally not capable of understanding why a forum like that is important to people. Yet many people I respect post there, and if the board wants it, I'll accept it.

But there is a sharply smaller circle of people to whom I would recommend B77--that's definitely true.


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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Sat 26 Mar , 2005 11:52 pm
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Primula_Baggins wrote:
Isn't England locked off? So that even if we were open, lurkers or people checking out the URL wouldn't be able to look inside?
OH! Doh! Anyone who gets on my work computer when I'm not there can click on my favorites list, and if they open up B77, then they can see anything I can see!

ACK!

And my kids can do the same thing from my computer at home. :help:

I'm going to have to get my viewing status revoked for that forum. :(


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Rodia
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Posted: Sun 27 Mar , 2005 9:55 am
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Or you could just set your browser not to remember the password. Then all they would see is the login page.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Sun 27 Mar , 2005 1:20 pm
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Yeah, but then I'd have to remember it! :Q


;)



You are right of course, Rodia. I'll do that! Thanks. :)


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Rodia
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Posted: Sun 27 Mar , 2005 2:30 pm
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LAZY. :P

Hey, I don't let my mum's computer memorise this board's info, no friggin way. And it's not because of the England forum either.

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Rowanberry
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Posted: Sun 27 Mar , 2005 4:29 pm
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In my workplace at least, we can lock our computers when we're away from our desk so that only ourselves or an admin can unlock them, and that's practically required for safety reasons anyway; don't any of you have the same possibility, I think it's a default characteristic of XP Professional?

And, I never set my browser at work to remember any passwords - and, I've got more of them than just to this site and TORC...

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Sun 27 Mar , 2005 5:58 pm
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Quote:
But that doesn't give us the right to say whatever the hell we feel like about whoever.
I would say that as long as it's not causing a disruption to members of this board we should be able to say whatever we like. But obviously that's just me. ;)

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Rodia
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Posted: Sun 27 Mar , 2005 6:13 pm
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That would still limit people well enough, because even if someone who isn't a member is being insulted or discussed over and over in a negative way, it will almost certainly displease at least one of our current members. Eventually, even without the rule, people start to react badly to it. We've had people threaten to leave or simply say they don't like the atmosphere enough times already.

It's not talking about people who provoke us that's the problem...ranting about Oreo or Angel or IE...it's when it starts to become a default topic, when I can expect that when a certain person will be mentioned, it will be negative. This doesn't do us any good. It makes us comfortable with treating these people as punchbags, long past the point when we are hurting from their injustices, we continue to slag them off because it's commonly accepted. It shouldn't be. New people come here...and although we don't hand them a list with the names of people they can safely bitch about, we do almost that. It's not fair, it's not charitable, and it degrades us all instead of allowing us to be as fair as we claim to be.

Obviously it's hard to draw the line and I don't think any precise law can do that. Each poster must try and draw that line for themselves.
But I think that a rule about being polite and avoiding hurting people's feelings or trying to prove that people who can't come and defend themselves here are bad would do wonders to help us keep up a standard. In theory it should be a common expectation, but as a rule it would strengthen people's hearts, and give off a good impression on newcomers.

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Queen_Beruthiel
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Posted: Sun 27 Mar , 2005 6:31 pm
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Wise words Rodia.

The thread slagging off The_Angel and Alys was one of the first I came across. Posters were using their real names too! It just creates a bad impression.


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Eruname
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Posted: Sun 27 Mar , 2005 6:40 pm
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Primula_Baggins wrote:
Iavas, I'm curious--what do you think would prevent people from sharing what is posted here? Would a rule be enough? If so, how would it be enforced? If it can't be enforced, what else could be done?
I'll admit to not having read this thread through past Primula's post but I quickly wanted to respond to her questions...with some questions. :P

We have a privacy rule for the Invites forum, but what does anyone think would prevent people from sharing what's posted in that forum? Does the rule really prevent that from happening? Have we been able to enforce that rule? How can we prove that someone's been sharing info from that forum without them admitting it themselves?

We have a non-enforceable rule in the invite forum, so why does everyone have a problem with that rule being extended to the entire board?

The problem is, many people got the perception of saftey on this board due to it's closed nature. Noone can fault them for that since safety is the entire purpose of the closed board. I don't think it's fair to call people naive for believing that what they said stays here since we had the invite process and only tried to bring people in that could be trusted...although it seems that may not be the case. I understand that somethings can get out like one of the Symposium folks talking about a discussion going on there. I don't think anyone has a problem with that sort of thing getting out. What people do have a problem getting out is what is said about other people. We have a privacy rule in the invite forum to try to protect against that yet it seems many don't want that rule to extend to other areas of the board. To me it's all the same thing and should be attempted to be protected in the same manner.

I probably didn't make myself as clear as I would have liked, so forgive me!

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Rodia
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Posted: Sun 27 Mar , 2005 6:58 pm
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I think you made yourself pretty clear, Eru. And you're right.

As long as such a rule would go together with a rule about keeping this talk about other people as respectable as possible, I'm all for.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sun 27 Mar , 2005 7:06 pm
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Eru and Rodia,

I understand what you are saying, but I think that 'motivation' looms large in people's thinking about this issue.

In the Invite Forum there is a legitimate reason for talking about other people. We must, as you say, discuss the extent to which they are trustworthy. And just as important as that, we want to discuss whether they will bring contention to the board or help us to build it. Members need to feel free to reveal what they know, without fear that they themselves will then be talked about behind their backs.

But in ordinary conversation there is really no justification for talking about people behind their backs. It's one thing for Eru and Iavas or Rodia and gimli to speak freely to one another; or, for example, I have often talked to Voronwe by email regarding things that were happening on TORC and I speak frankly knowing that our conversations are confidential. But also, even though all of us sometimes need to get things off our chest, have our gripe, etc., we usually have conversations like that with a spouse or a trusted friend because we want their advice for handling the situation. In other words, there is a constructive purpose to the conversation.

B77 is not the breakfast table in your home and it's not an email convo between two people. It is more like a dinner party where a whole lot of people have been invited. They *have* all been invited but no one would call that a confidential situation. In the normal course of things, you would not work the crowd at a dinner party criticizing the uninvited behind their backs. For sure it would get back to the people you criticized, and even if it didn't, the other guests would probably find it unpleasant. This is less a matter of rules, I think, than it is a matter of ... social grace?

Personally, I think that the 'rule' in the Invite Forum is justifiable. That is a business forum, and there would be no point to an invite process if we had to censor what we say. Nevertheless, many people feel uncomfortable with the discussions there. We need to be careful there to keep the constructive aspect of the conversation in the forefront. In other words, the purpose of those discussions is the good of the board and not the grinding down of others who are not here. That line can't really be legislated; it has to be felt. And we should help one another, I think, to keep even those discussions at a level where we would not be ashamed of what we have said there if it got out.

Jn

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Rodia
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Posted: Sun 27 Mar , 2005 7:24 pm
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So...I...yeah. I thought I was saying that...or maybe I wasn't.

I hate important conversations. I really do.



:blackeye

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sun 27 Mar , 2005 7:28 pm
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Rodia,

I agreed with what you were saying. I thought that was very good ... I was just commenting on your agreement with Eru that a rule of confidentiality could work outside the Invite Forum.

I rather suspect that it would not, because the same kind of conversation would not be appropriate, really, outside the Invite forum to begin with.

Jn

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