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Confidentiality of the Board

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Ethel
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 2:57 am
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1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

Well... the fact that it's a closed board suggested to me that people would prefer their conversations to be kept private. I did not feel it was inappropriate to give a general idea of what the board and the conversations were like at a high level, though.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

Truthfully, I don't see a lot of difference. Summaries can actually sound worse than exact copies - depending on the intent of the person sharing information.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

No. It's unenforceable.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

See above.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

No. Impossible to do, and extremely divisive.


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oldtoby
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 3:33 am
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1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

In the case of discussion related to invites yes, otherwise no, not really.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

No, I think both ways are equally at risk of causing harm.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

Yes, but of course we will need to spell out specifically what will constitute a breach. I think a graded banning system (ie the more serious the breach the longer the ban) should be the consequence.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

Well by having what violates the confidentiality spelled out in as great a detail as possible somewhere on the site can convey the expectation. Banning or perhaps restricting posting privledges in some way of the offender for some period is the only way I can see to enforce it.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

Its too late to do that for prior occurences, the best we can do is set things up to deal with future instances.

I hope this helps you some. My only prior experience with this is on a board where I am a beta tester. The owner has us (me and the other beta testers) sign a nondisclosure agreement for the source code and what not. But there are only about 12 of us there. I don't think that will ever be a viable solution here.


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laureanna
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:56 am
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1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

My understanding was that this board was private from casual or accidental reading. I realize that this is a closed board - for now - and that what is said now should not be spread to others. I also realize that this could be an open-to-everyone-in-the-world board very soon, in which case I must be careful what I say. I do not want to say malicious things that will hurt others - they always seem to get forwarded to the person by "helpful" individuals, even when said in a closed room. I also don't want to post things that will have to be erased before the board opens. Having experienced banning, I know that there could be a time in the future when I am, rightly or wrongly, unexpectedly prevented from accessing and erasing my posts. Better that I never post them, than that they go public and unretrievable. That is why I have not posted my address on the address thread. Who knows what hacker has that list now, or will have it in the near future. It is also why I do not post things I will not stand by in the light of day.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

Yes. I have been asked point blank by TheDaimonLucifer why he was not invited, and I spoke from my knowledge of what had been told to me in both threads and emails, in very general terms, that it was because some people didn't want it, and we are a democracy. I was extremely vague, but I did say the gist "no" without the details of who didn't want him and why. That would be far different than copying and pasting his first invite thread, which by the way, I don't have access to because it is in a hidden forum or no longer exists.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

Depends on what a breach of confidentiality is. Is it a breach of confidentiality for several people to discuss on a thread here the best way to write a letter to Jonathan, and then for one of the people to write that letter? Is is a breach of confidentiality to write a parody here, then post it in TORC? Even if done in both places by the same author? Is it a breach of confidentiality to find out some information here, then post it in TORC? Can you prove that I found out here first? Posting here what IE said to me in email was a breach of confidentiality with her, according to her (though it was an official TORC message). Should I face consequences here? Quite often I show my husband (not a member of TORC or B77) some link I found here, such as a photo or trailer. I don't think I can be one hundred percent sure that I will never say to others something I heard first on B77. I fear this could be an unpleasant place to tread, if there were consequences to mete out for these actions.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

I don't think you can enforce it, any more than you can enforce any behavior, other than thru fear, intimidation, or restraint. You can convey its importance to everyone, and warn, fine, incarcerate, or banish those who breech confidentiality. But you can't guarantee that someone might say something in anger, drunkeness, or ignorance, dispite knowing the consequences.

We are posting out in the middle of the Internet, for heaven's sake. It is not nearly as secure as IM or email, and even those are not particularly secure. But you can't stop an outsider from hacking in, or pretending to sign up as a beloved fellow TORCer. And there is no way to enforce confidentiality on one who is here by deceitful means.

We can tell all members that it is expected. But that is all we can do. Perhaps people should be encouraged to take "private" gossip - anything intended to hurt a particular person or her/his friends - to PM. "Breach of Confidentiality" must be defined carefully, and it's reason for avoiding explained, if you want people to follow suit.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

No. The cat is already out of the bag. What can you hope to accomplish? Witch hunts would not increase my sense of security here.

By the way, I have mentioned several cases which could be taken by some as breaches of confidentiality, but by me as not breaches of confidentiality. So there is no reason to hunt me down, I am right here, if you choose to define me as in need of consequences.

Sorry if I sound antagonistic. But if we would all refrain from bashing people behind their backs, this kind of thing wouldn't be happening now.

Some smilies to let you know I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings:


:x :x :x :x :x :rage: :bang: :doh1: :nono: :)

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TORN
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 6:10 am
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1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

I had no expectation of privacy and never considered conversations in the Turf to be confidential.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

It depends. I believe the honorable thing for people to do if they feel the need to tell others about what goes on at B77 is to describe whatever it is they wish to describe without attributing specific statements or positions to specific individuals, other than themselves. That is how our organization attempts to deal with sensitive but not necessarily confidential meetings where many different parties are involved. We say that participants are free to describe what has taken place in general terms and to characterize their own statements, but that it is unfair to identify positions or statements with other individuals. For one thing, those other individuals would not be in a position to ensure that their own positions and statements are properly characterized. Given this mindset, I would say that relaying a gist of conversations generally would be preferable to cutting-and-pasting exchanges between posters.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

Given that I do not think there should be any formal policy of confidentiality in the other forums, my answer is no.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

I believe that the policy in #2 above, if it were the policy adopted by B77, could be conveyed in the TOS or other posted policy statements that I so routinely fail to read!!!

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

No. A waste of time and could only lead to potentially significant negative consequences.


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 7:54 am
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1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

My understanding was complete confidentiality.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

Yes. Though both could be equally harmful.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

Yes. The first offense should get a final warning, stating very clearly that it is not tolerated and that a subsequent offense will result in an indefinite ban.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

Each invite should clearly spell out the nature of being a closed board, and there should be an announcement at the top of each forum about the rules/guidelines.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

If it were possible, yes. Then if found guilty, a permanent ban should be given.

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Leoba
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 8:53 am
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Truehobbit wrote:
Just before starting big with the invites we also occasionally discussed how to deal with giving out info, too, and the answer invariably was "trust your own discretion" - don't remember where to look for these, I'm afraid.
If I recall correctly, this was in relation to discussing the existence and broad nature of B77 with ‘outsiders’, not the intricate detail of anything discussed on here.

However, despite the fact I would wish individuals to have the honour and common-sense not to disseminate information to ears for which it was not intended, I would stress the fact that we’re all reasonably mature individuals, used to using the written word in a formal setting. You don’t write in an email the sort of thing you might say in a private conversation with a very trusted friend; when that conversation is in an even more public, format, on the web, the onus on each of us to think before we post is surely only stronger?!

Last edited by Leoba on Mon 21 Mar , 2005 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Farawen
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 11:49 am
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1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

When I joined, this board was closed and there was no question conversations were confidential. Then the board started evolving, and somewhere down the line confidentiality went out the window. I've come to accept that.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

No.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

No, not for breaches of confidentiality since we're not the Gestapo. For the disrespect and abuse of trust and friendship that such a breach of confidence constitutes, yes.

Temp ban for first offence, ban for repeated offence.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

Add an appropriate clause to the Guidelines of Conduct.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

No, not very helpful. And by now it's pretty clear who has breached the confidentiality of b77 anyway, and it's also obvious that their actions have made them feel like crap. Enough punishment, I guess.

6. Should preemptive action be taken if someone merely threatens to reveal information?

Hard to answer. I want to say no because again, we're not the Gestapo. But then again, threatening to reveal information is about as disrespectful of other members as one can get, and should be sanctioned.


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Mummpizz
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 12:18 pm
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1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?
I expected ALL conversations to be confidential. But then, when I joined, most conversations were wound-licking after the December turmoils on TORC.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?
Cutting and pasting things is an abominable deed in general imho, be it newspaper articles ;) or private communication. It is completely different to tell jokes read on b77 than copying laments or complains from the "Paths of the Dead" or other TORC-related threads - people who do that should be asked to leave the board, as they must ask themselves where their loyalties lie. This is, however, applicable to b77ers too. But this is only my private opinion, as I have retired from TORC.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?
Yes, there should be a boycott of communication until the "breacher" either declares to keep mum or bails out. I think it is evident that "breaches of confidentiality" is understood as "using the confidentiality on b77 as a weapon against members of it in other spheres".

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?
A "terms of agreement" on signing in, a mandatory mentor on the board for the first month or so, and a boycott of communication if reveiled.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?
Yes please. And we should actively forbid any posting of b77 stuff on TORC, even in homeopathic doses. It does hurt "Them" and isn't useful or funny for "Us".

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yovargas
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 4:11 pm
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It seems I have a different take on this then most. I'm surprised there was an expectation of confidentiality and if that was the desire it should have been made very clear upfront upon becoming a member. Since the Invites forum is the only place where confidentiality has been made explicit, I assumed (reasonably so, I think) that the same rule didn't apply elsewhere. Why make a special note of the rule for Invites if that same rule was meant to apply to the whole board?

That said, I think there is a more general way to view this. At first, I was uncomfortable with the "pre-emptive strike" idea as it did somewhat feel like an attempt to curb thought-crime. *shudders* But Lidless has changed my mind and I think he has the right attitude about all of this. Even if there isn't a strict rule of confidentiality to the other forums, it is a simple matter of respect to not go around repeating private discussions to other people without permission. I made that mistake once early on where I sent a thread to Wolfie and Watcher in html format for them to read thinking it was no big deal. It was later pointed out to me that some things were said that some of the posters may not want out in the open. This was a mistake on my part - not the specific idea of sending out a Turf thread to non-members, but the matter of not respecting the members enough to ask for permission before doing so. This is where wilko's threat falls into the "breach of conduct" category. It's not simply threatening to do something stupid, it's the blatant disrespect of the other members who have explicitly stated that they do not want their words made public. In this case, it isn't even just a display of disrespect for some members, it is disrespectful to the board as a whole, imo.

So, yes, I think this sort of action calls for some for of reprimand under the breach of the rule to respect your fellow posters. As to what the formal consequence should be, I would be reluctant to make hardcoded rules since they should be looked at on a case by case basis. I actually sent a thread to others, but it was done without malicious intent and I immediately apologized when I realized the problem. Because of that, no action needed to be taken. This kind of view, one of judging based on a perceived lack of respect, leaves things rather subjective but I can live with that.


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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 4:42 pm
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First of all, I'm in the dark as to what has happened to freak everyone out like this. Could we have an explanation please?

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?
ERRRR.... we have 180 people registered on this board. How can ANYONE consider ANYTHING they write here to be confidential? To me, "confidential" means something between you and one or two other people. I rather naively consider my PMs here to be confidential, but any other conversation I write already has the possibility of being read by 180 people who might not like what I have to say. What I write here, I do not consider it to be confidential, except the Invite forum- and even there I don't say anything there I would not say to their face.


2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?
No, there is a difference. Cutting and pasting is better than "gists". "Gists" are imprecise and wishy washy. If you must tell someone what has been said here, quote in full and in context.

That said, I've never shown anyone any information from here besides my immediate family. I show my husband and kids whole threads that I think might interest them. They are all members of TORC, but no longer active. I will not stop showing them stuff. ANY time I talk about my husband online, I always show him the thread if I think he might be bothered by what I said. That's just how it is between us and don't ask me to stop!



3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

NEVER make rules you cannot enforce, and you cannot enforce this without becoming more authoritarian than TORC.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

Is it expected? That question assumes that it is, yet the first question in the list implies that policy has not been set. :scratch Same answer as #3, really. You can't enforce this without becoming worse than that which we came here to avoid.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

Good grief! :roll: No!

And again, WHAT HAPPENED?????


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 6:12 pm
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Maria, Wilko threatened to reveal information to a non-member and there were calls for his banning. That's what initiated the discussion.

Ok, I'm going to sneak my own opinion in here ....

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

I expected to give it but not to get it. I wasn't born yesterday. ;)

During the recent bannings, many things were said on TORC that I considered inappropriate coming from members of a private messageboard. I could do nothing about this, except observe that the ones quickest to blab back then are the ones demanding the most privacy and retaliation now.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

I asked the question this way because it sounded like someone was copying whole posts and passing them along. But I agree with those in this thread who have said that the intention of the communication and the way it is handled is more important than the form it takes.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

If the intention seems to have been malicious, then we should express public disgust. If we start banning people now for going on about B77 and what's happening here elsewhere, then my list of candidates to be banned will be long, my friends. Very, very long.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

We should put any such expectation in the registration email and in the Welcome Forum sticky.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

No. But know that they are there, people. And if you say something nasty, either delete it or own it.

6. Should preemptive action be taken if someone merely threatens to reveal information?

If they've already seen it and intend to blab it, the horse has already left the barn.

Jn

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Confidentiality of the Board
Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 7:42 pm
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I am coming into this late, so I'm just going to first address the initial post before reading the rest.
Jnyusa wrote:
1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?
I came here trusting that on the board, since being private, there would be an underlying expectation of confidentiality. Most people don't make private boards so that the rest of the world can know what is going on-- it is just not logical. The golden rule comes to mind. No one here would want me to start telling people I know (at TORC or wherever) what is being said here, so I trust no one else would do so. I haven't said anything too personal here yet, so I have no real worries about anything I've said being blabbed about (just in my personal experience here so far).
Quote:
2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?
Yes, unless it is your own personal comment. The gist of the board was explained to me after the fiasco at TORC when I was curious about why things happened the way they did.
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3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?
Perhaps. This might be difficult to pin down and gather proper evidence for. I assume the consequence should fit the infraction. If someone is telling lots and lots of someone's personal life to someone who dislikes him or her, perhaps a ban until the board is opened to the public. If it isn't that serious, maybe a temporary ban. Bans are really the only viable consequence on the internet.
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4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?
It can't be enforced, only expected. Like I answered to question 1-- the golden rule. If you don't want your personal information leaving this place, then you shouldn't do the same to someone else.
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5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?
We could try. It'd be mighty difficult, though.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 8:01 pm
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During the recent bannings, many things were said on TORC that I considered inappropriate coming from members of a private messageboard. I could do nothing about this, except observe that the ones quickest to blab back then are the ones demanding the most privacy and retaliation now.
Jn, can I respectfully ask you not to make veiled references to specific problems without saying who was responsible? I read comments like this one and think "Is she talking about me? Probably, but I wish I could be certain". If you have a problem with certain people being hypocritcal, please be open about it and address those people directly, either in a thread or by PM. Thanks. :)

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eborr
Post subject: Re: Confidentiality of the Board
Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 1:17 am
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I am going to be a damp squib on this one - the notion of confidentiality on this board is entirely a matter of trust, good manners and good sense, the software is not secure - breaching it to read is a pretty trivial matter - if someone with a little skill is determined he/she can read it whether he/she is a member or not.

My advice (professional) would be not to put anything confidential onto the board, because someone somewhere can see it if they want to (*
**NSA**)


1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

I have no expectation of privacy, and personally see know reason for passing information within this board to a third party - although other people may think differently.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

Interesting question - in "security circles" they attach great significane to cutting and pasting sensitive information, but almost non to casual conversation gleaned from it, certainly if you are going to cut and past you should attribute

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

no idea - but people should mark what they think is confidential, for what may be sensitive to you is not sensitive to me - Consequence - publish their innermost secrets on the front page.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

You cannot enforce it, this message board software is incredibly easy to hack and read - therefore your environment is not safe- what you are relying on is trust from the participants and the indifference of the hacking community -


5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

How would you go about this -the software is not secure, do you have tools which track access and activity.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 1:54 am
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Jn, can I respectfully ask you not to make veiled references to specific problems without saying who was responsible?

Iavas, you're absolutely right and I apologize. And I also withdraw the comment.

I am extremely annoyed right now at the way these recurring TORC-related problems derail the tasks of the convention and I spoke out of general annoyance (in two places), remembering the very large number of people who were 'defending' B77 on TORC during the bannings by stating our purpose, our policies, our lack of negative attitude toward TORCers, the reason for the invite process etc. All of this was done with good intention and out of motivation to defend the banned, but when we talk about the confidentiality of the forums any of that could be considered a breach of confidentiality. So I am looking at the constitutional convention and saying to myself that by the time we could agree on a definition of confidentiality and who breached it, it would be 2006 and meanwhile the work that would end this problem is not being done.

I personally never had any illusions that people would be able to resist repeating things heard here - good or bad - and I don't care about that outside the Invite Forum. But I do mind it if this particular question overwhelms our time right now because it seems to me that opening the boards is the only way to make it a non-problem, and the only way to open the boards is to pay attention to something else right now.

(and yes, I know that I'm the one who started the thread ... so that the discussion would happen on one place and not ten places)

Sorry to be so grouchy, but I am feeling grouchy right now. People were bandying about a date of April 1 for opening the boards, and I thought it reasonable to suppose that 90% of the convention work might be done by then because so much had already been discussed in individual threads. But we've been at this for two weeks and beyond deciding how to ratify the constitution we've only advanced to the third sentence in the first section. People want too much, you see. We all want our say and we also all want what we want right now. Waiting for 130 people to finish talking when they all live in different time zones and visit the net at their leisure means that nothing is going to happen right now. But that doesn't stop people from demanding action. So I'm not feeling especially cheery at this moment.

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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:hug: and :love: for Jn. :)


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Eruname
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 2:07 am
Islanded in a Stream of Stars
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I can sympathize with you Jn. I harbored some of the same feelings while an admin. It was so hard to give people what they wanted when they wouldn't tell me what they wanted or try to help out.

I almost feel like the last paragraph of your post needs it's very own thread to call attention to it because it's extremely important! We all need to realize that we have to work to get what we want. It doesn't just fall on our laps normally.

I feel bad that I've not posted much in the convention thread but I feel like I have a brain the size of a peanut compared to most of the folks in there. I just don't know what to say most of the time. :oops:

_________________

Abandon this fleeting world
abandon yourself.
Then the moon and flowers
will guide you along the way.

-Ryokan

http://wanderingthroughmiddleearth.blogspot.com/


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 2:14 am
One of the Bronte Sisters
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Eru,

Now I'm being serious. You do not have a brain the size of a peanut. :rofl:

As far as the convention is concerned, it's enough for people just to say what they agree with, or even that they don't care one way or another on a particular issue. Pretty much everyone has been participating at as high a level as I could expect ... the problem is we haven't agreed on anything! :)

Jn

_________________

"All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."
Epigraph on the tombstone of W.C. Fields.


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Ethel
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 2:20 am
The Pirate's Daughter
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We are amateurs, Jn. You're a pro. How can I help? Would you like me to redraft the current section incorporating all the current suggestions?


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yovargas
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 2:33 am
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:hug: to Jn for the ridiculous amount of work she's put into these boards. It is appreciated, whatever that's worth. :)


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