board77

Dear Members,

A situation has arisen that has caused us to question the expectation of privacy held by members of B77 OUTSIDE THE INVITE FORUM.

I would like to open this up to discussion by all the members, since it affects all of us and is a problem that exists only so long as we are a closed board.

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

Jn

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

This is the crux of the issue perhaps. When I joined - as with everybody who joined prior to January 2005 I believe - there was no question that what was said on Board77 should go no further. It was set up as an extension of email/IM and was treated by its members with the same level of confidentiality expected. When we opened up further, the intention was to leave the TORC business behind us, but with each new wave of people has come more issues and more flare-ups. Perhaps with hindsight it would have been wiser to keep all TORC related discussion to a separate forum with a different level of confidentiality to the rest, but that in turn could have been counter-productive to our longer-term goal of moving on.

For my part, I hope I never say anything I wouldn't say to someone's face, wherever that may be. But nonetheless I do expect a level of intelligence on that part of anyone voted in here so far, to understand that whilst it's a closed board, 'we' (collectively) don't want all and sundry reading our posts. Perhaps, if this is indeed the case, we need to spell that out?


2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

I wouldn't do either. But there is no formal reason at the moment why someone couldn't, bar their own conscience.


3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

Only if there is a formal rule in place. We cannot enforce something unless it's 100% clear what has been contravened.


4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

By pointing it out in their welcome email, by adding it the FAQ/Welcome guide. Perhaps by going as far as to email/PM each member to reinforce the message?


5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

A witch-hunt would be detrimental, IMO, to the sense of community within this MB. We know someone is spreading malicious gossip and perhaps lies. I hope that what goes around comes around and it will bite them pretty hard on the backside eventually. But with nothing more than a rumour of 'someone' to go on, I feel our hands are tied.

Get out of my mind Leoba

What she said 100% except point 4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

Practically speaking, there is NO WAY to enforce confidentiality. It's a trust issue as well as a self-moderate issue. All we can do is make it as clear as possible in the FAQ/Guide to B77 thread (in welcome). Perhaps in the future a better registration process can be devised once we have our own place but here on this free phpbb boardour options are limited.

I would not go as far as sending PM's to every user or emails, but rather send every newly activated member a personal 'activation email' (not the automatic one that get's sent from here) pointing out the FAQ/Guide thread. At this point in time and with the limited options we have here there is no way to guarantee new users will open that thread. On the new board and in the future however this could be 'tweaked'

_______________
Resident witch

Okay. My contribution.
For what it's worth.


1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

***** It was my naive assumption that because this is a closed board what was said here would stay here.


2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

***** Yes. To my mind, one speaks to intent and the other (can be) simple gossip.
Like it or not, we are ALL capable of gossip.


3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

***** Not unless written restrictions are already in place. Once, or if, this is done, depending upon the severity of the
Disclosure, consequences could range from a simple “please don’t do that again” to banning.
< harmless disclosure might include the relaying of a positive invite vote, repeating innocuous conversation … deliberate disclosure includes repeating negative comments with a malicious intent>


4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

***** In the future include it in the admin email which activates an account. Retroactively? Individual PM’s?
A sticky in the Info/Welcome Forum?

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

***** If I am honest, the vigilante side of me would like to say YES. But, without concrete proof we would merely indulge in suspicion, witch-hunting and paranoia.
Since no formal statement has, to my knowledge, ever been made, it would be unethical. However, should concrete proof
suddenly present itself, unlikely as that may be, and the perpetrator known beyond a reasonable doubt then that person should a) have a hearing and b) a vote taken on what action to take.

Well, I have only been here a brief time, not even a full month, but here are my thoughts on the subject:


1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

From what I was told at the time I received my invitation, I understood that the board was still closed, and as such, should be treated with confidentiality

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

Difficult to answer. I would state that cutting and pasting comments that were being done to promote clarity or (re)build a bridge, and when done with the author(s)'s implicit knowledge amd express approval as to which non-members would be receiving them is okay, such as in attempts to communicate with Jonathan over on TORC for example. I think conveying the general gist of a B77 conversation to a non member under the same guise is also okay, such as trying to clear up a perception or misunderstanding, but then it should be vague, not naming names or giving out specifics. I say this only where it applies to positive and possibly needed applications to remedy a misunderstanding. Malicious intent, passing on negative comments of a personal nature, or spite are obviously completely different things.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

I think that this needs to be addressed in the convention where rules of conduct are being establised. And, I agree, it depends quite a bit on the nature of the disclosure, and whether it was deliberate, clandestine, and/or done with negative intent. In the interim, is there enough of a consensus that some sort of joint admin/jury situation and/or arbitration option could be utilized?

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

New members in the future need to sign something indicating that they have read and understand and agree to abide by the "rules of conduct?" A link on the main page that also outlines them as well? And, will this even matter if the boards do go public? Is this just an interim solution?

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

I think that this would be difficult at best, so much of what has happened is a mixture of hearsay, speculation, and some actual leaks, how would anyone go about trying to discover it? Unless other non-members come forward and actually point fingers at a specific B77 member indicating where things said originally here in confidence and no where else were betrayed and/or "leaked," I would say that it is probably not a useful pursuit any longer, what damage has already been done will not be undone.

My feelings are very similar to Leoba's.

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

I expected that everything that was written here would stay here. What's the point of a closed board otherwise? I do understand that a little gossip can get around though.

I haven't said anything bad but I have said things that I would rather not get out because I don't like being confrontational. I wouldn't say a lot of stuff to peoples' faces because I'm a bit of a coward, but it sure does help to be able to talk about certain things with others so I can get it off my chest. But just because I post it here does not mean I do not mind it being relayed to other people.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

I'd say cutting and pasting is more serious, though summarizing threads and passing that info on to others isn't acceptable either.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

I'd like to say yes but don't have suggestions on how it could work.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

Unfortunately, we cannot really enforce it. We may hear later that someone was passing on info and can hold some kind of arbitration and decide whether the person should have access or not. I think the confidentiality expectations can be conveyed through PM/email and definately in the email welcoming new members. Also Leoba's suggestion of putting it in the Welcome thread is a good idea.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

Like Sass, the irrational part of me says yes, but rationally I know this isn't possible. It would end up hurting the board even more. We can't do anything without proof and I don't think that's something we're ever going to have. I just hope Karma catches up with the person who's been doing this.

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

Because it was a closed board, my understanding was that we should not contact NYT or CNN with transcripts. HOWEVER, my understanding of anything posted to the Internet, closed or open boards, is that it's the Internet, meaning that we can't possibly evaluate the trustworthiness of every individual or control all leaks (clearly, there is at least one person and possibly more in this group who has/have already acted dishonorably). I think confidentiality is an idealistic and unrealistic expectation, particularly in discussing TORC, given the number of people outside this board who have strong feelings about its existence. Given this, I don't plan to post anything here that I couldn't deal with leaking out ...but, at the same time, would not c/p or summarize for any nonmembers what is said here.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

This is too situation-dependent for me to give a general answer. I plan not to do either.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

In most cases, I would say "no", particularly as this board comes into its own, and the percentage of TORC-related conversation decreases. However, a penalty for egregious offenses might include temporary restriction of viewing/posting privileges. I don't think a first offense might merit a full ban. I also think that "egregious" would have to be fleshed out and defined.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

Current members could be alerted via announcement, and a form email to newly approved members could be drafted. I do not know that there is any uniform way to enforce confidentiality, although I don't think it's inappropriate to punish offenses that do come to our attention, if we decide to adopt a procedure of confidentiality.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

I have no idea what "actively seek to discover" means, nor where one would even start. If anyone has concrete ideas of how to do this, it might be worthwhile, but I fear this would just lead to conjecture and gossiping.

- TP

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

My expectation was that the members of this board each had a vested interest in its success and well being, and as such would have no desire to do it harm. That may have naive on my part, and will almost certain not be true once the board is opened to the public, but it was what I expected. That it has not proved to be the case, so early in the development of the community, is disappointing.

As for confidentiality, I never assume that anything is confidential on the internet, even on a closed board. My own philosophy is never to say anything that I might regret. That said, one of the distinguishing features of this board (as opposed to torc) is the ability to speak your mind without fear of recrimination. That such recrimination does not exist does not, however, absolve anyone of responsibility for what they say. Moral: say what you feel needs to be said, but always with the understanding that it might be shared with others.


2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

Without very clear rules in place to protect the speech of the posters (and I can’t for the life of me see how this could be done) I don’t think there is any significant difference, other than that it is in extremely poor taste, petty and juvenile behavior.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

I can see a slippery slope here. Confidentiality usually has to do only with those things that may be used against someone, or give someone else an unfair advantage. How do you determine what these things are? Do we make every word posted in each forum confidential? How could we? That is the difficulty in coming up with a formal policy, imo. Where do you draw the line?

I would advocate a procedure of jury/arbitration taking into account any deliberate intent to cause harm to the board or its members, rather than a formal consequence such as banning.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

Self moderation by the members of the board should be the first line of defense. I’ve seen this happen several times already, and it seems to be fairly effective. Beyond that, making everyone aware of the expectations would seem to be the only effective means of enforcement.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

Don’t want to see witch hunts. I can only see rancor and discord coming from such a thing. If we know for a fact that someone is seeking to cause us harm, then we should take action, but beyond that - no.

Tinwe wrote:

My expectation was that the members of this board each had a vested interest in its success and well being, and as such would have no desire to do it harm. That may have naive on my part, and will almost certain not be true once the board is opened to the public, but it was what I expected. That it has not proved to be the case, so early in the development of the community, is disappointing.

I'm not sure that it has not proved to be the case, Tinwe. I think it is possible that different people have different ideas of what is in the best interest of the community. I don't think that anyone has acted with the intent to do the community harm, including wilko.

It seems to me that another question that needs to be discussed is this:

6. Should preemptive action be taken if someone merely threatens to reveal information?

I know that this is the crux of the wilko situation and should be discussed there, but it is also part of the question of what policies the board is going to adopt on confidentiality.

My own view is that the only response to such a threat should be an appeal to the person's better judgment, and a reminder that revealing information from invite threads would lead to a suspending of posting and reading privileges in that forum, as well as on other policies that we come up with. [/quote]

VtF wrote:

Quote:

6. Should preemptive action be taken if someone merely threatens to reveal information?

No. We're getting too close to the realm of the thought police if pre-emptive action is taken. Punishment (selective or complete banning, suspension of some or all posting/reading privilages) merely on the suspicion that an infraction is imminent is too close to TORC's methods for comfort. Suggesting that "Off With Their Heads" is an appropriate response to an implied, not actualized, threat is equal to one word: Ted.

Quote:

My own view is that the only response to such a threat should be an appeal to the person's better judgment, and a reminder that revealing information from invite threads would lead to a suspending of posting and reading privileges in that forum, as well as on other policies that we come up with.

I completely agree.

Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:

Tinwe wrote:

My expectation was that the members of this board each had a vested interest in its success and well being, and as such would have no desire to do it harm. That may have naive on my part, and will almost certain not be true once the board is opened to the public, but it was what I expected. That it has not proved to be the case, so early in the development of the community, is disappointing.

I'm not sure that it has not proved to be the case, Tinwe. I think it is possible that different people have different ideas of what is in the best interest of the community. I don't think that anyone has acted with the intent to do the community harm, including wilko.

Perhaps you are right, and I certainly hope that you are. I am curious though, how do you see it being in the best interest of the community for an individual to convey confidential information, keeping in mind that “breach of confidentiality” nearly always implies egregious intent? I note that nothing in the post in wilko’s restriction thread specifically states such intent (quote - “[Wilko] wants to take matters in his hands and said he was going to cut and paste and show [Alys] what was said about her...”) I suppose it’s possible that he intends only to show the nice things that were said about her, but it does sound like a thinly veiled threat, and threats, to my mind, always imply the intent to do harm.

6. Should preemptive action be taken if someone merely threatens to reveal information?

As I said, “threat” implies the intent to do harm, does it not? Allowing threats to occur without some type of action being taken could foster an atmosphere of fear within the community, imo. I understand (or at least I think I do) the danger in taking pre-emptive action, before an actual offense has occurred. A threat, after all, is nothing more than an idea, and part of the raison d’etre of this board is the free exchange of ideas, but at the same time a community cannot be held hostage by those who wish to do it harm.

I’m not really too concerned at the present time about much of this. After all, what harm will really be done to the community if someone does read unflattering things said about them here. The problem comes down the road - what happens if that person becomes a member themselves. What desire would they have to pursue the best interests of the community knowing that such things had been said about them. This is why I think confidentiality should be expected from all of the members, even if it cannot be rigidly enforced.

Sorry, I’m rambling now. A bad habit, I know.

edit to remove rl names

Tinwe, I am not saying that this is my view, but an argument could certainly be made that complete transparency would be the best thing for this community, rather then harboring "secrets" (which by their very nature tend to both take on greater importance because they are "secret" and to eventually get to the people who they are trying to be kept secret from anyway).

I just got here, and I am mostly in the dark about the current "situation", but that won't stop me from answering.

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board?
Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

I have no expectation of privacy, on open board, closed board or RL. The world is a small and interconnected system, things said in all innocence will travel over the strangest roads and get to exactly the wrong ears. I've had my boyfriend confront me about something I said to my best friend, even though the two have never met. It turned out that her boyfriend went to school with the girlfriend of my boyfriend's best friend (that was very clear, right?). P.S.: he married me anyway.

I understand that other people do have an expectation of privacy, and I feel bound to keep their trust. To paraphrase Gilraen, "I give privacy to others, I expect no privacy for myself."


2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

Not much, if the gist is conveyed faithfully. What I would see as a huge difference is whether the comments are attributed to the posters.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

I can't imagine. I would second (third?) Voronwe - we can only appeal to the poster's better nature. And even then, something could be said with the best intentions and cause a major disaster. That said, if there is a clear intent to cause pain and distress to anyone,

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

I do not think this is worth any effort.

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

Originally, when the board was set up as an extension of an email listing I assumed it was going to be a discussion forum ... had no expectations either way of privacy, but then those I was posting with were mostly people I knew either personally or through TORC, so had no problems with trusting them should any indiscretions become too regrettable ....

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

Yes ... cutting and pasting direct comments implies almost needing to prove something ... it is very different imho to merely sunmarising a gist of a conversation ..

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

If we are to expand our community we need to have guidelines that new members are aware of and tacitly agree to ... general ones ... enforcing formal consequences other than those already addressed in other threads in this forum, I feel would produce a forum that is not what most of us are looking for

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

Well something like a set of guidelines in the Welcome thread or welcome / invitation email might be an idea .. as others have suggested before me

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

No point .. they know who they are and why they did it .. I doubt they will enjoy the community very much in the future if their actions were to deliberately undermine the boards. Any other reasons for their actions will remain to be seen [/b]

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

My expectation of privacy has certainly changed over the months... usually I don't post things that I would not say face to face, or in IM conversations, so personally I don't mind being quoted. As for giving out information of the TURF threads - all depends on the information and the intent. Let's say for instance, I have on my IM list someone who know Alatar and is not on board 77 - I would not see telling this person that Alatar's daughter is born as a confidence breach. For me the line lies with the nature of the information and the intent. So, I would say personal information and any information giving with an appearant intent to harm, discredit or hurt a poster is sensible for me.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

Yes - I would not quote someone directly if I could avoid it... or ask the concerned poster for his agreement to be quoted. But again, it mainly depends on the nature of the information and the intent of transmitting it.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

Only if the concerned poster requests it in the BikeRacks. (I mean the one who feels harmed by a confidence breach)

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

A precise announcement in the welcome thread, eventually in invites again.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

No. I am not concerned, so for me this is easy to say. What good for? Spreading even more distrust?

Jnyusa wrote:

Dear Members,

A situation has arisen that has caused us to question the expectation of privacy held by members of B77 OUTSIDE THE INVITE FORUM....

What has happened? I've been away all weekend and I'm not very good at keeping on top of things at the best of times anyway.....what has happened? Can someone sum it up in a couple of sentences?

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

As confidential as any conversation between friends - in other words maybe yes, maybe no, depending on the nature of the subject matter. When I have a conversation with a friend, or a group of friends, I do occasionally refer back to that conversation when discussing a similar topic with others - BUT (very big BUT) only with an attitude of goodwill towards both. I don't mmisrepresent people, I don't disseminate hurtful or malicious or personal things - not in RL, and not here.

I think one has to use common sense and good will in such things. And obviously things discussed 'in cabinet' remain confidential at all times.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

It's sort of like giving a third party the transcript or tape of a phone conversation, isn't it. Not very nice.

Having said that - I once did precisely that - copy/pasted about 3-4 sentences of a most conciliatory nature to demonstrate just how much conciliation was sought (this was in relation to two particular people who had fallen out and I had high hopes that it could be sorted out and friendship renewed).

But, you know, I don't see much call or need to convey anything to anyone. I don't see myself as a conduit or a middle (wo)man.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

I don't know what this actually means. What kinds of breaches? What kind of consequences?

I think there's a difference bt someone copying across verbatim comments from the turf expressing, for example, I fervent wish for all this TORC stuff to be over with and someone copying across to a third party personal information someone volunteered (maybe in England? or any personal revelation) because this is considered a 'safe' environment.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

I think that conversations here should be treated in the same way as conversations bw friends in RL; commonsense and goodwill should prevail. You don't reveal the foibles/confidences/frustrations of those who have trusted you enough to confide them.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

Thanks for starting this discussion, Jny!

Maybe some people remember I even thought the privacy rules for the invite forum somewhat of an overreaction, although I basically see the reasons for them. So the following should not be too much of a surprise.

Quote:

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

In the beginning of this board, it was of course assumed that all conversations here were as confidential as e-mail or IM-conversation.
For me personally that meant not offering any kind of information on what has been said here.

Since the messageboard changed into an, albeit closed, meeting place for friends, we have (I thought) adopted a policy of 'each member should act according to their own discretion and integrity as to what they share with others.
However, when we invite people we also ask ourselves whether they are likely to indulge in gossip - "completely trustworthy" or so has often been an argument for inviting someone - so we somehow expect that discretion and integrity to be of a pretty high level.

Edit: I remember that in wilko's "my presence on this board"-thread, he asked about how "secret" things were supposed to be, and I answered giving the abovementioned policy, which was then confirmed by Alandriel.
The thread appears to be gone, though, (or maybe I'm too tired to find it), so I can't quote.
Just before starting big with the invites we also occasionally discussed how to deal with giving out info, too, and the answer invariably was "trust your own discretion" - don't remember where to look for these, I'm afraid.

Quote:

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

While I agree with Sassy that we are all inclined to gossip - share info in a completely thoughtless way, and that therefore copying and pasting somehow are more deliberate, I don't really think it's a big enough difference. The difference comes, as others also said, with intent.
That's very hard to determine, of course, but IMO it's an offense to gossip or copy with an intent to hurt someone (whether it's people outside by letting them know hurtful things others said about them or whether it's members by disclosing who said what, if that's something negative), but it's not an offense to just tell someone what's going on in general, or copy a joke or something harmless like that.

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3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

No, I don't think there should be consequences, because I don't think we should force anyone to keep things confidential.
Like I said above, it's been repeated by several people in different threads at different times, that it's up to anyone's choice what they share. We just never expected anyone to copy and paste anything that could be harmful to a member here, because we thought everybody here would have the best interest of everybody else at heart. We thought it was self-evident that people we invited because we trusted them would see where the limits are before chatty behaviour turns into harmful gossip.
Maybe that was naive, but I still think it's a good policy.
Like some people have said before, you just shouldn't expect anything to stay secret if you just tell it to one friend IRL and ask them not to share it. Things get out in spite of that. Just try not to be guilty of it yourself if you don't like it.

So I don't think we should now say we were wrong and we expect people not to tell anything of what was said here to any non-member - it's just not right - LOL, I'm too tired to think of an explanation why.

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4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

In light of the above, I don't think anything else needs to be done.

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5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

I don't see how that could be achieved, even if it served any purpose to find out, which I doubt it would.

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

I, as another of the original members, have always though that the board was completely confidential. Otherwise, why not have it Private (as in only members can post) but publically viewable? We have it private and hidden for a reason. I think that what is said here should stay here - no matter what the forum. In a specific context at least. See below.


2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

Yes! Cutting and pasting to a non-member should NEVER be done, unless it is something that you, yourself wrote. Should never cut and paste from another member, ever. If it's simply a conversation to a non-member, discretion should be used - touchy topics should be avoided, names should never be used.


3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

I don't know about the other forums, excluding the Thinking of England forum. Penalities for breaches of confidentiality for that forum should be has harsh or harsher than those for the Invites forum. If people give details about conversations in other forums and it is found out about, I think they should be politely asked not to in the future. HOWEVER, if they are found to or intend to cause harm with that breach of confidentiality, I do think that there should be a formal and harsh consequence.


4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

It should be stated in the invite email. When the boards open, it depends - are we going to have free access for registration, but the ability to see the boards is only available to people who have registered? We need to figure out the manner in which the board is open before we decide on that. For now, it should be stated in the invite email, and in a global announcement that should be in every forum anyway (one that says who the admins are, how to contact them, and the general guidelines for use of the board).


5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?


No. That will only cause more harm than good.

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential? I joined a CLOSED board. Enough said. It doesn't take the brain the size of a planet to work out what that implies.

2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?
Yes. It's a CLOSED board.

3a. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum?
Yes, otherwise what's to stop them.

If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?
A ban for x months from the forum in question. x = 1 to 3 depending on the breach. A second breach should lead to a ban from all forums for 6 months. Plus, a permanent irrevocable ban from the entire site for a Thinking Of England breach.

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?
Within the admin e-mail to posters, and within the constitution (whilst a closed board).

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?
A non-issue. Either we know from the beginning, or in the vast cases otherwise, we'll never know.

6. Should preemptive action be taken if someone merely threatens to reveal information?Yes. That action being responsive to, and dependent upon the past history of the poster concerned and the estimated likelihood of it occuring.

Anything that destroys the ethos of openness must be dealt with. In this case, an openly-admitted threat destroys that atmosphere just as an actual breach would.

This is wilko's second threat in as many weeks. Two separate topics, too.

This must stop.

1. What expectation of privacy did you hold when you joined the board? Was it your understanding that conversations in the Turf were confidential?

My expectations were not the same as what I expected. I saw during the first couple of weeks that the majority of the original posters expected the closed board to be just that...closed; thus that's what clearly was the goal. I expected, however, that would last about as long as the first person really getting pissed off at something someone said about a pal of theirs back on TORC. However, it is clear that some folks very clearly expected their conversations here to stay here, and given the dictum that the rights of people here matter more than the rights of people off the board (as far as the rules of this board are concerned), I think that expectation on their part should be respected, and that if we are NOT going to have any policy protecting confidentiality, they be allowed to edit anything they don't wish to share off the board.


2. Is there a difference between cutting and pasting comments from the Turf so that non-members can read them, and simply conveying the gist of a B77 conversation to a non-member?

No. Cut and paste can be altered easily enough. There is no difference.

3. Should there be a formal consequence for breaches of confidentiality that do not have to do with the Invite Forum? If yes, what do you think the consequence should be?

I think doing anything designed to hurt people on this board should have consequences. I think that a jury should decide what those consequences are, so that the scope of the problem can be taken into account. Banning should not be out of the question for recidivists

4. How might we enforce confidentiality, or at least convey to all members that it is expected?

All of our rules for posters, or perhaps a link to them, need to be sent out with welcome emails.

5. Should we actively seek to discover who has breached the confidentiality of the board so far?

It's far too late for that.

6. Should preemptive action be taken if someone merely threatens to reveal information?

Should action be taken if someone threatens to do anything? In real world law, threatening something can indeed have consequences, from restraining orders to jail time. However, if we are going to punish people for threats, that needs to be clearly stated in the rules.

The problem is that there is no means of detecting the veracity of a threat beyond a poster's history, while on the other hand, once a threat is carried out, action is probably irrelevant, since what's done cannot be undone. In many if not most cases, someone who actually reveals embarassing info with malice aforethought will not care what the consequences are, so long as what passes for their own personal sense of "honor" has been satisfied.



Edit to add:

For obvious reasons, I believe that the contents of the England forum should also have some degree of confidentiality expected.