board77

Imp, I trust you and believe you. I know you have not been passing on information, apart from what you said you did (for which I thank you sincerely, as I hope it did good), and I told Alys so when I was in Glasgow. I am not happy with the veiled accusations against you, in fact I'm not happy with any accusations of the sort against those who leaked information. I don't believe that we have "rats" among us; I believe that some of our members thought differently and thought that by sharing information they were doing good. I don't think they did, if they were selectively choosing information rather than presenting a balanced view, but that's my opinion. I believe that whoever leaked information must deal with their conscience only, like all of us, when we've done something questionable.

I did not understand your request for a temp ban, I thought you wanted it only as a way to stay out of certain discussions. I don't want to ban you (and moreover, I don't think I know how to do it and I don't want to risk doing something irreparable), but I'll temporarily suspend your permissions to all fora save this one, so that you can come back and let us know if you want this one to go too, or anything else. Email me (Berhael at gmail.com) if you want anything rectified.

Imp, you're not the first I've heard wanted to leave but you got it almost right in your second email: if you leave, your influence on this board is gone. If you leave, you're giving up your chance to change things, and at the same time your right to complain. If you go away and stop saying your piece, then you will be ignored. It's logical.

This goes out to everyone who is sick of the arguments and wants to go away and come back when things are better. They won't get better by themselves, guys. Someone says or does something you don't like- say so. Say "I don't like this part of b77". Don't think your voice doesn't matter.

Maybe people will disagree. In fact they certainly will disagree. But not all of them.

I think people are getting more upset than they need to be, just because others don't have the same opinion. I think we still feel like this is TORC- that we need to make a huge impact as soon as possible before the threads are locked... So what if someone thinks something I don't like is okay? My opinion is as important as theirs. I don't need to throw a hissy fit just to make myself heard. All I need to do is stay here and work on getting my way to be everyone's way. If I don't succeed...well, it will be a while before we can have a full picture of what b77 stands for and what it doesn't stand for. Once that is clear I will be able to look at it and see if there is anything that I so strongly disagree with that I would want to leave.

I would like state that I disagree with the practice of suspending someone's forum access for anything other than disciplinary reasons.

If someone wants to leave, there's nothing to stop them doing so, but we (we being the members) should not be responsible for other adults' choices or ability to adhere to those choices. We give ourselves more unneccessary work. Besides which, I feel that if anyone is truly bothered they would stay and work it through, discuss their concerns openly in the interests of achieving resolution (utilising the Backracks of necessary) and work hard to make this place work for as broad a range of people as possible.

It may be an idea to set up an arbitration process for this, once we're done with the current "test" one. I'll try and consult it beforehand, though.

I think you're right, Leoba. Asking for a ban is demanding that b77 help that person make a statement against...b77. Isn't it? Now there's nothing wrong with making such a statement but people should do it on their own, instead of putting the rest of the board, especially the admins, in an uncomfortable position like this. If someone wants to leave but can't...well...tough? Maybe it means they care more than they think.

I agree, Rodia. Now, I don't know all the backstory here; I hadn't even realized that there were veiled accusations at Imp until now. However, I honestly feel that asking to be banned, in general, is a passive-aggressive way to make a negative statement against the board in question. We seem to have a quite-good free speech ethic here, so if we want to express problems or concerns about what is being said, we are free to do so explicitly (as far as I know?) However, outside of that, I think that if people wish to remove themselves from this forum, they are old enough and mature enough to be able to do that on their own.

- TP

Well.

Impenitent wrote:

1. The smarmy implication that I'm the one who has been feeding information to Alys is beneath contempt. Ask outright, don't smear by implication.

For the record, since I have a hunch you might be referring to a comment made by me while pissed off. I was not referring to you, and I did not mean to imply that you're the one who has been feeding information to Alys. You chose to take it that way.

Quote:

In the meantime - Farawen, feel free to tell us all how much you've been hurt and how mean I am and how it was a mistake to invite someone who obviously has no loyalty and how it is now too intimidating to freely post your honest opinions on this site.

Thank you for your permission to talk about my feelings, but as I don't see how it would do the discussion any good I think I'll pass on that one. And again for the record, I never said anything about being intimidated by your or anyone else's presence on this board. I'll post my honest opinion on this site no matter who posts here, and if everyone else did too, we'd all be better off.

Just IMHO, of course.

And in keeping with the theme of this thread, I'll announce now that I will leave this board for a prolonged RL break in order to do Easter-ly things with my family, and there be no internet access there.

Leoba: I would like state that I disagree with the practice of suspending someone's forum access for anything other than disciplinary reasons.

I am in agreement with this 100%

Jn

tolkienpurist wrote:

I hadn't even realized that there were veiled accusations at Imp until now.

I hadn't either. I'm sorry if they occurred Imp. I figured everyone knows that you're an honest person and wouldn't lie about that sort of thing. I've never thought you were passing on hurtful info to Alys for the reason that I knew you wouldn't want to cause another person pain.

I do hope that Imp and Farawen can work this out. Things have gotten a little bit heated and perhaps both can try to to calm down and really look at what the other is saying? Maybe try to summarize each other's points? That's a technique for something and I can't remember its name!(speaking and debate? Griffy, help me because you've posted about it before!) I see Imp saying that she didn't believe she'd be able to keep herself civil and requested the ban because she didn't want to be rude to people...she didn't trust herself because she was so angry maybe? I see Farawen saying that when people request a ban, it gives off a very negative vibe and almost seems to say this place is awful (I can understand that because I get that feeling when I see people threaten to leave or ask for a ban). I also see that you both care for this board and the people on here. There's a nice peice of common ground for you both to start with: you're both passionate about this place.

Massive hugs for Imp and Farawen.

I am getting more and more convinced that an arbitration would be the right way to proceed here. As I said before, I'll wait until the current one (in which I'm involved) is done, but it seems to me that things need to be discussed in that sort of environment.

Berhael,

I'm thinking that the Bike Racks should be the starting point when two members are peeved at one another. If they are talking past one another, they can ask for a facilitator.

I view arbitration as becoming necessary when some action must be taken to alter the behavior of a poster.

That doesn't seem to be the case here ... what would an arbitrator decide? - Imp, stop misunderstanding Farawen? Farawen, stop saying things that Imp might think refer to her?

Farawen did not openly accuse Imp of anything. No one did, in fact. And it would be impossible to show a pattern of innuendo because Farawen only made one post.

[yes, I read all 24 pages of both threads last night because I was sure Imp left out of anger at me.]

So I would say - Bike Racks first. If that doesn't work, proceed to the next step.

But anyway, Farawen is out of town now until after Easter.

Jn

I bow to your superior understanding Jny...

Ber,

I'm also seeing, as these issues come up, where the language is not clear enough in the Jury Room.

I had originally proposed a kind of arbitration that would cover the circumstance we have here ... I called it a facilitation, but basically it needed a jury just as an arbitration would. Members thought this was too much board involvement in petty disputes - too many layers of decision-makers thrust upon the board. I think it was Estel who suggested that Bike Racks would be the best starting point and really everyone agreed with this, including me. At someone's request - I forget now who - we added back in the availability of a facilitator if the involved posters wanted help, but otherwise we would all just stay out of it.

What I see now is that I need to add language to the sticky on Arbitration so that it will be clear that arbitration results in a directive for one or more posters to change their behavior or a penalty for something that already happened. Unless this is the desired outcome, the posters should go to the Bike Racks.

Jn

Edit: I have added an additional explanatory sentence to the first paragraph describing Arbitrations in the second post of the Jury Room sticky on How to Use the Jury Room. It now reads as follows:

"If a disagreement or dispute between posters cannot be resolved at The Bike Racks, or if posters refuse to “take it outside” after being asked to do so, any member may request an Arbitration. Arbitration results in a directive that one or more posters change their behavior, or in the imposition or non-imposition of a penalty for something that has already been done. If this is not the desired outcome, posters should continue to pursue a resolution of their dispute at the Bike Racks."

Imp, I haven't seen anyone imply that you are the leak to Alys, but I'm sorry if you've felt that.

Quote:

I apologise to those who suffer shrapnel wounds reading this - this post is general in nature but there are many to whom it does not apply. I appreciate very much the work and energy of those who have worked with dedication, noses to the grindstone, to benefit this board and its members, those with common sense and open heart, those who have not nursed grudges and have sought healing instead of vengeance, those who have held their piece instead of lashing out, who have been genuinely saddened and have resisted the urge to gloat....in short, the great majority.

This sounds to me like telling people how they should grieve. Can't you just accept that everyone will react differently depending on their personality?

Jnyusa wrote:

"If a disagreement or dispute between posters cannot be resolved at The Bike Racks, or if posters refuse to “take it outside” after being asked to do so, any member may request an Arbitration. "

In that case, may I second the suggestion that Farawen and Impenitent take this to the Bikeracks? I will be happy to move this thread over there, if they wish to talk to one another after the Easter break and try and resolve this between them. Or alternatively you might want to talk via email or IM?




I am very much in favour of members working stuff out between them where at all possible.

Thanks Jny and Leoba I agree 100%

and to Impentitent: like so many others have said here, I hold you as a very trustworthy person with a high level of integrity I hope that you will be back

Misunderstandings DO happen and precicely for that we have the bike-racks. I hope both parties can resolve their differences either there or through other channels. Misunderstandings breed 'bad' sentiments and if those are allowed to remain, they have a tendency to 'fester'. And that's not pretty I hope you can work it out

_______________
Resident witch

Iavas wrote:

This sounds to me like telling people how they should grieve. Can't you just accept that everyone will react differently depending on their personality?

Iavas, people's right to grieve in their own way ends where it harms others, just like with anything anyone does.
I think Imp is right. The way a few people here (and on TORC) deal with their grief and hurt is like what you see in the Middle East or Northern Ireland. I fully understand the desire to throw stones - but it's not going to help anyone, you know. It'll just result in more hurt and perpetuate the suffering on all sides.

I've received a message from Impenitent asking me to let everybody know that she can't read anything posted here or PMs, so if you've tried contacting her and haven't got a reply, don't think she's ignoring you.

Quote:

Iavas, people's right to grieve in their own way ends where it harms others, just like with anything anyone does.
I think Imp is right. The way a few people here (and on TORC) deal with their grief and hurt is like what you see in the Middle East or Northern Ireland. I fully understand the desire to throw stones - but it's not going to help anyone, you know. It'll just result in more hurt and perpetuate the suffering on all sides.

Who exactly are you comparing to terrorists and for what actions? I sure don't think that comparison is going to help anyone either.

Berhael wrote:

I've received a message from Impenitent asking me to let everybody know that she can't read anything posted here or PMs, so if you've tried contacting her and haven't got a reply, don't think she's ignoring you.

Um... why can't she?