board77

Sorry for the bad title...couldn't think of anything better. Basically this is an extention of Ethel's Sorry thread.

I want to first say that this thread isn't meant to attack anyone's actions or to attack any member. I've started this thread because I'm worrying about a possible trend starting. So please, try not to take anything personally. I'm hoping that this thread will stay calm and courteous.

Things can get pretty stressful on message boards and serious disagreements will always occur. Because of this, we've experienced posters asking for their permissions to be turned off so they cannot access the boards and to help them take a break.

I totally respect a person's need for a break and do believe breaks can be beneficial. I also understand a person's need to make a statement about a situation. However, I don't agree with a member requesting an admin to deactivate their account or turn off their permissions.

To me, it seems like this is taking advantage of this board's system. (Again please, noone take this personally) At other message boards, posters would not have this option. If a poster needed to stay away, they'd have to do it on their own and I think the same should happen on this board.

Also lumped in with this topic is a poster requesting their own ban. I'd actually like to propose that we not allow that here as to me it's very unproductive.

I do hope that I've not offended anyone or stepped on any toes. I have a feeling this is a touchy subject, but it's one we need to get sorted out IMO.

Eru,

I am in complete agreement with you.

Jn

This is how I'd put my position:

"It should not be a function of Board 77 staff to regulate the access of this board by it's members."

Can't see how this would be at all controversial. Agree 100%.

So do I.

I am NOT talking about any specific person--just the principle. Having permissions changed makes a departure more dramatic and noticeable, and thus more painful to the people who stay. Most of us have had enough uprooting and disruption already to last us a long time.

It's also especially frustrating for people who are working to build a stable and inclusive structure for this board, whether they're on the committee themselves or are interested observers reading along and offering comments and suggestions. One thing I can guarantee is that this board will be very different in a couple of months. Why not stick it out--even contribute?

Again, what I just said is addressed to some future person who might consider leaving--I am not discussing anyone who's left or left and returned. I know every case is different and has a whole set of additional factors involved.

I also don't agree with an admin bowing to a poster's request to change their permissions or ban them. If a person doesn't want to be here, that's their own responsibility. I don't know why the request was granted in the most recent case.

I agree with this. Perhaps this can be put into consideration for the Constitution or bylaws? Members of a messageboard have two responsibilities: post what they are comfortable posting, and regulating their own activity on the board. If constant posting is becoming a problem at work, or home, utilize your willpower and stop until you are ready to post again.

"Except for disciplinary reasons and for limited-access forums, permissions for a member shall not be changed for any reason."

Edit: Um...yeah...I was being all longwinded and people posted before me...I wrote this when there was one reply to the thread. Ahem. Sorry. feel strongly about this.


Me too. What I want to say is also not meant to accuse anyone or anything like that, but I'm just trying to understand the situation....and explain why I'm against such requests being honoured.

I think about the reasons a person has for asking to be banned. It can be for their own convenience(let's not forget that Estel offered to ban people if they found they were neglecting their daily work and needed help, but that was her being nice). But more probably I think it is to make a statement- to make a statement louder than announcing that they are leaving. When someone says they will leave we all assume they still lurk around, but a ban is final. It is saying 'I don't want to have anything to do with this board (right now/ever)'

So it's a much stronger statement.

But.

To make this statement the poster needs help from the b77 admins. Obviously banning one person doesn't add too much to their workload, but you can see the principle.
Also, they are asking for help in speaking out against b77. Now we all know this board isn't afraid of criticism- but why should the admins and people who are working to make this board better help someone put weight to a criticism of b77 that is not constructive, but rather destructive, as it deprives us of a member who could otherwise join in building the site?
It doesn't help morale. It feels like a failure. It leaves us all here discussing why the poster left and we all get more and more disillusioned...and start doubting that all of this can ever work. It leaves us feeling that we failed that poster, and that they might never see our efforts because they cannot access the board any longer. Basically it sucks!

A while ago I almost wanted to leave b77. But I decided that if I left, how could I come back and expect all the problems that made me leave to have been solved? It's like Eru making this thread- she was worried it would hurt feelings. It might. But if she didn't speak up about what bothered her, it might never have been talked about, and then could she have complained in the future that things weren't how she wanted them to be? Not really...we build this place ourselves...it's not like TORC where we can only email the admins and hope they will react...we have to be the ones making the actions here.

So...back to the bannings. I think that requests to be banned because of a dissatisfaction with b77 should not be honoured. The ones where people need to be banned because they'll lose their job otherwise... um well I don't know how to work that one out. But if someone doesn't like this place and doesn't want to be here, they should just cope on their own. They can make a thread saying "I am leaving because...." but I'm really against admins being made responsible for whether they can or can't stay here. Must they also periodically send an email asking if the person would like to come back? I'm sure all of our current admins would feel obliged to do so. Not fair to put this weight on their shoulders.

(I realise reasons for wanting to be banned are much more diverse and complicated than I made it sound like in this post...but the principle is the same: If you want to make a statement make it yourself and don't expect people who don't agree to help you make it. )

May I just chip in and first say I'm also for people having to stay away on their own and not being able to request having their settings changed.
It's very true what Rodia says about it not helping moral and being detrimental to the general 'environment/atmosphere' of the board. If people feel strongly they need to take a break, well, they can say so by opening a thread or they can quietly go and then come back when they're ready and refreshed.

I also would like to point out that at least in my view there's a difference between a ban and restricting posting rights. It might be a technicality but I do look at those two very differently.
A ban means the user's ID is banned from accessing the site. Changing posting rights only restricts the users access - which might mean ALL fora but for me it's not the same as banning their ISP. So far, no one has had their ISP's banned (as far as I know), only posting rights have been restricted upon the explicit wish of the user. I hope that this practise will not be done anymore in the future.

At some point the Constitutional Panel will also get to the topic of discussing users rights and responsabilities. Though this is for some a sore topic, necessarily it will have to be somewhat defined. Just wanted to add this in here FIY
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Resident witch

Great post Ro.

In that light, I would like to request that Berhael reverse her previous decision and reinstate Ethel's permissions.

Well let's give it a moment though. This thread isn't exactly a decision...I mean so far we all agree but there's no rule yet.

No, but people involved in the convention are here (Eru is and she started it), and this is a good way to bring things up that the committee can then address at the right time.

I do want to point out that Berhael decided, reluctantly, to grant Ethel's request, and there is no rule against her doing that. She can change her mind if it seems right to her, but if it doesn't, that's her choice.

This is why we're working on writing things down--not so that admins can never exercise any judgment, but so that there are agreed policies about important issues.

I'm not demanding that Berhael reverse her decision, just making a request that she consider it.

True. (words, words, words!)

Oy vey.

Edit: THIS POST IS NOT BY CERIN. It was mistakenly edited on top of Cerin's post by me--I thought I was doing a quoted reply. I sincerely apologize to Cerin for wrecking her post. --Primula_Baggins

Cerin wrote:

Primula_Baggins wrote:

Having permissions changed makes a departure more dramatic and noticeable, and thus more painful to the people who stay.

Can you explain how you see that having permissions changed makes a departure more dramatic and noticeable, and thus more painful to the people who stay?

Because so far those who have done this have always announced it.

Someone who is willing to leave discreetly simply does so--if any of those has asked to change permissions, I haven't heard of it. And it seems unnecessary to do this except to make an extra splash.

Those who ask, publicly, to have their permissions changed are in the same category as those who ask, publicly, to be banned: they are seeking maximum impact for their departure, whether to make a statement against something, out of anger, or for whatever other reason. Some of them have been reasons I sympathize with. The tactic is one I don't sympathize with.

Yikes! My post has been replaced with someone else's response. Could someone fix that? I didn't save my post, so I can't re-post it.

Quote:

Someone who is willing to leave discreetly simply does so--if any of those has asked to change permissions, I haven't heard of it.

Would you have any objection to a member's permissions being changed at their request, if it were done discreetly?

Quote:

Those who ask, publicly, to have their permissions changed are in the same category as those who ask, publicly, to be banned: they are seeking maximum impact for their departure, whether to make a statement against something, out of anger, or for whatever other reason.

I agree with this. So are people really objecting to the concept of members being allowed to request a permissions change for reasons of their own, or are people objecting to the practice of using such a request for dramatic purposes, or both?

Personally, I object to both.

I object to dramatic requests because they have an ulterior purpose. I object to non-dramatic requests because it should not be the job of admins to cater to the personal wishes of members regarding what time of day they post, etc.

Estel said she was trying to fix it so that each of us could change our own permission if we wanted to ... locking ourselves out during working hours, for example. If that could be done by each individual to suit themselves, it would be super. Then I would have no objections to people controlling their own time by using their permissions. It's like putting a time lock on the box of chocolates.

Jn

Cerin, I am terribly sorry--I have made a bad mistake.

I meant to quote your poll and reply to it--instead I must have hit the "edit" button.

I'm very, very sorry. I've only been an admin for a few days, and I'm not used to having edit buttons on other people's posts. It looked to me as if it was my own post going in as usual, and I didn't notice that yours was gone.

I don't know what to say, except that of course I'll be much more careful in future. But that won't bring your post back--and I know you put a lot of time and trouble into it. I'm terribly upset and embarrassed.

Primula

Admit it, the power went to your head.


Seriously, thank you for explaining, and please don't distress yourself further over it.

:):)