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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 4:33 pm
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Thanks for posting in here Impenitent - I was hoping very much you'd do so and give us a different point of view... which of course youv'e just done :)

I didn't see it from that perspective but now that you've pointed it out, yes, can sympathize very much. Thing is though, even if someone is banned (for whatever reasons) that username still shows up in the memberlist so ... in a way, there is no way to disassociate yourself totally once you've signed up. That would (at least as far as I know) only be possible by DELETING a user ID. Though that might mean - possibly, I'm really speculating here now - that posters posts might vanish :Q Perhaps this could be tested by an admin ... hmmmm.... I'm going to try this on the practise board and see what happens, then I can give proper info on this :)

In any case, once someone registeres that someone is caught ;) - wether on this to-date closed board or even in the future on the open one (here or on the new site). Asking to be banned or having posting rights restricted will not remove the name from the memberlist.

I'll get back to you on that one when I'm done fiddling ;)
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Berhael
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 4:33 pm
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I don't know, Wampus, and it's one reason why I haven't done it. I've never been on the practice board. Maybe I'll create a new user, post a few test posts and then delete the user, unless someone who has done a bit of research on the experimental board can give me an answer.

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 4:52 pm
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okies.... just in case you're curious what happens if we delete (zap!) a userID. I've just gone through the motions over at the experimental board

- user ID disappears from the membership list
- posts done by user remain but show up as 'guest' ID
- same for threads opened with the deleted ID, they show up as 'guest'

I believe any signatures/avatars the user might have used are zeroed as well though I have not tested it (makes sense though). So yes.. there would be no indication by whom the posts/threads were except in our memory

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 5:38 pm
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That really disturbs me, Alandriel, especially in cases such as Ethel's where people still hope she'll return when we open. It's not as bad as having the posts disappear completely, but it's ugly-- makes the person an "unperson."

Also, it diminishes the value of the board to those still here; threads mean less if one or more important posters are not identified. I really don't think someone leaving should be allowed to damage the board in doing so.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 5:55 pm
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I agree with Prim.

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 5:56 pm
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hmmmmmm?


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 6:00 pm
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Well, this has just been added to the section we are voting on next in the convention. So ... answer forthcoming!

Jn

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 6:01 pm
Thanks to Holby
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Perhaps the way to deal with this would be to not make the member list public. Then people who joined but who don't wish to be associated with the board any longer would not be associated with it publicly, and that might be sufficient for them.

Also, isn't there a provision of some kind about purging the membership lists every so often? In that case, people would know that at some point after ceasing to participate, they will be taken off the list, and their desire to be officially dissociated from the board would then be satisfied.

I agree that the history of the board should not be tampered with. Posts should not become "unidentified" because someone has decided not to continue as a member.

Btw, I had assumed it was Ethel's intention to return when the board was opened.


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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 6:06 pm
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Ooooh, no...no purging...Okay, if we ever get a person who never posts in years...but what use is deleting a username here? All it does is create confusion by turning all the posts into 'Guest' posts. At some point you might have a thread with nothing BUT Guests talking to each other.

I don't want us to keep every registration mistake like TORC does but let's not be lighthanded about deleting usernames either please... what if someone wants to come back?


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 6:23 pm
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Cerin, apparently with this provider we cannot hide the memberlist. It would be something we could discuss when we move to the new board, although assuming we'll be open there, there's less of an argument for hiding it, I think.

I would advocate purging names only if they have zero posts and have not visited in a very long time, say a year.

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laureanna
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 8:07 pm
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Here are several compromises to deal with problems Imp has brought up:

1.On the experimental board, there is the option to allow members to change their names. Perhaps someone who wants to leave and no longer wants to be associated with B77 can simply change his/her user name to something else, with an admin's help, and then just stay away from the board.

2. If we are going to continue to be a closed board, but with an open to view membership list, and that is making people paranoid, then perhaps all of us who are paranoid could change our names, but have our old names as our "rank" or byline. The byline would only show up in posts, not in the publicly visible membership list. It would just take a while for everyone to get used to the new names.

3. If a person is interested in joining B77, perhaps he/she should be given a few days of lurker permission - the ability to read all forums except the England forum and the Invite forum, but not the ability to post. This lurking could even take place during the voting. Then the decision to join could be a mutually informed one.

One more random thought. We don't know when we are going to open invites again, but is there anything to stop us from voting on invitees now, but just holding off on contacting them with the results? Or are we planning to open the doors wide at the end of the constitutional convention, and never do any more invites?

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 8:07 pm
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Your assumption Cerin pertaining to Ethel wanting to return once the board is opened is correct.
In all this discussion about banning vs. restricting posting rights I did not mean to cause confusion - sorry if that was the case. But since appearing on the membership list has become an issue somewhat I thought I'd test out what would happen should and ID be deleted (which has not happened ever so far here) in a safe environment. For that we have the answers now and Jny has added the other point to the pannel discussion :)

Also wanted to second Prim's sentiments. I really don't like the notion of deleting any ID's, not for a purge even although in case of zero postcount and inactivity for an entire year I'm all for it. Hiding the membership list, well, I would not go as far as that but rather have it only visible to registered members instead (something which will be able to customize eventually, but not at current on this free MB like Prim said)

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Berhael
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 9:19 pm
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laureanna, I like your suggestions very much. :)

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 9:39 pm
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Laureanna: you posted the exact same time as me and that's why I did not see it till now.

WOW!!!! Great thinking. I like it all very VERY much :love:

As to your question. The possibility of opening up before the entire constitution is ratified has been, well, not exactly discussed but it has come up. As far as I know no exact details as to when something like this were possible and under exactly which circumstances however have been determined. Perhaps this could be grounds for a seperate thread here in business. But for the time being it looks like, again as to a 'gauging poll' in this forum that invites might not happen, though that advisory poll is almost 50/50 divided

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Fri 08 Apr , 2005 10:10 pm
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Yes, the poll is divided, and although we haven't even got a guideline anywhere, my common sense suggests that such a close result means no action should be taken--it would by the very definition of the term be divisive.

At least some people voting against invites have said that they did so because they want that structure never to be used again--because they want to open instead. I think the question of opening in the near future would be a good choice for the next advisory poll.

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jewelsong
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Posted: Sat 09 Apr , 2005 1:19 am
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Just jumping in here.

I just wanted to say that the longer this board remains closed, the less comfortable it feels to me. The fact that so many people who are NOT here know about it makes me very distressed; the fact that invites have not been re-established and the timeline for the board being open seems to be very vague...all this makes me feel not quite right.

I have always despised "exclusive clubs" and I don't like being on the "included" side of one. And like it or not, that is exactly what B77 is right now.


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TORN
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Posted: Sat 09 Apr , 2005 1:20 am
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Berhael wrote:
I am torn over this issue
:x :x :x
NO, BUT YOU WISH YOU WERE ME!!!!
:x :x :x

But seriously, I also believe that people should be able to disassociate themselves completely from B77. Assuming that a resignation procedure is available, then anyone asking to be banned would simply be directed to resign.

That being said, I just can't get all that worked up about the admins being "manipulated" to help make a parting statement. I understand the reasons for consternation over this, but I just always took this place to be about personal freedom -- yet, it seems that almost everyday there's a new discussion about more rules and restrictions and limitations, or there's a new storm over someone's tone in a post that (as we all should know by now) invariably ends with a realization that there was no real ill will involved, and I often sense an excess of bending over backwards to make sure absolutely no one is ever offended by anything that happens here. The freedom of this Board sometimes seems to be twisting itself into another form of paternalism.


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The Watcher
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Posted: Sat 09 Apr , 2005 1:41 am
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I very much like the idea that laureanna proposed about changing one's poster ID if one intends to leave the board. That should at least give an appearance of someone still have being here, but under a different guise.
Although, when anyone of the posts is responded to or quoted, it will not be too difficult to figure out who the poster was, since the replies will not be edited. Just something to think of. So, it really does not provide a truly workable solution.

On the other hand, I do not think it should become the job of admins to delete or remove access from boards that a poster is willingly leaving. I would think that as responsible adults, we can and should be trusted to ignore a MB that we are having problems with on our own willpower. Otherwise, I can envision a future where we have people asking to be removed, then changing their minds, etc. which could become ridiculous.

Ethel is an adult, and if she cannot find the willpower to stay away from this place, then, too bad.

I DO understand where she is coming from, but I do not agree with it this time.

I know for myself, the attractions of a closed board are nill. I choose to edit my own information at the source, and if I did not feel comfortable doing so, I would not be posting ANYWHERE. In that regard, I see no problem with an open board. I envision the open board being on the new site, and then whatever issues are still around about "he said/she said" being available here in certain threads should be moot.

I also find myself being somewhat frustrated by being rightfully considered a "new member" but still having some serious thoughts on all of these issues. It seems like we all love to talk about some of this, but there never seems to be a consensus about when things will be ready. I am not being pushy, but does everything have to languish in a quagmire during the interim constitutional process? Why cannot we just have some forum wide votes on a few very routine issues in the meantime to address some concerns? The two that come to mind:

1. Should admins bar or ban existing posters who ask for it without very valid reasons (and I CAN think of a few very valid reasons, but they are not the reasons that have been requested so far. Valid reasons should be ones that protect a poster's privacy, due to stalking, identity theft, hacking, legal issues, perceived recriminations, etc.)

2. Should the Invite process be resumed as it was before during this interim period? Change nothing, but, it seems like things are jsut dragging down in the meantime. Certainly a limited number of new invites should not bog down the process any further.

My own thoughts: NO to the former and YES to the latter.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Sat 09 Apr , 2005 1:59 am
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Beth, go to the polled thread about opening the board and place your vote.

The vote is 19 and 20 (yes and no). I'm sure those who haven't voted and want this place opened could easily change those numbers. After that, pick a time length to leave it open for longer, then close it and do whatever the outcome is. Otherwise, what is the point in the poll?

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Holbytla
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Posted: Sat 09 Apr , 2005 4:21 am
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I for one will not have any part of the invite process ever again. Too many ills stem from that process, and it is sooooo not worth it.
I will however agree to opening up the board with a minimal constitution in place as long as the convention rolls merrily along. New people that join will have no say, and the process is uninterrupted.

As for Ethel that I love dearly, well I can't agree.
She made a concious decision to join this board and you cannot erase the past. She was a registered poster here from whatever date to whatever date. End of story. If she chooses to rejoin us, then she just picks up where she left off. If she chooses not to, then that is our loss, and still her posts stand.
You cannot erase history, and it is not fair to everyone here to pretend she was never here.
I firmly believe she will be back, and this will all be water under the bridge. Opening up this board will imo assure her return.

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