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Another vote on deleting that wilko thread after all?

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 2:45 pm
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That depends. Are we addressing a specific issue for specific people, or trying to make a precedent? I am far more interested in the latter, as I believe to former to be presently and possibly permanently intractable in ANY case.


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 4:07 pm
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Ethel wrote:
There is really no point in holding a vote on deleting the thread if Dindraug's response to it is simply to repost his private issues with the people in question, as he has done twice in the last two days.
My dear Ethel, and I can completely understand your frustration. I certainly would not have chosen to respond as Din has done, when he did. But I support his right to express his opinion, so long as it does not step across the line in the ways that we have enumerated in the Charter, which he certainly has not done.

The simple truth is, not everyone is going to like everyone. If people are not going to feel welcome here because someone doesn't like them, pretty soon we won't have anyone here at all. ;) I have had occasion to be reminded recently by a number of particularly wise souls that one person's animosity should not outweigh the friendship and good wishes of many people.

If someone feels that they can not be welcome here because a small number of people are antagonistic towards them, even if a large majority of people would welcome that person with open arms, that is certainly that person's perogative. But I think one need look no further then the reception that people who have joined us since we have open (particular Oreo) to see that the welcoming nature of this community is not just empty words.

And that is an encouraging thought. :love:


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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 4:45 pm
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We seem to be stuck in the mud here.

Can someone tell me which ratification thread the text approved in the Jury Room 'Amend Binding Votes' thread is part of? I'm confused as to where that actually appears in the Charter.

It seems to me we need someone to get things moving and lead the committee discussion. Is there anyone who has expressed their willingness to be on the committee, who would volunteer to take that role?

Regarding the concerns about stacking, I don't think we should worry about it. I supported the re-vote because I think the question of whether the thread qualifies for re-vote merits examination. I'm assuming that the committee will look at the thread and the previous discussion and engage in a real examination of the issues involved, rather than that people with opinions set in stone will barrel in and try to push through an already-arrived-at-decision.

As far as the idea of having a standing pool of potential committee members to pick from, I don't care for that idea. I think in the case of a revote, you want people who have been actively involved with the particular case up for question and care enough about it to volunteer specifically for that. It seems to me we've had a wide variety of perspectives expressed, from fervent desire to see a particular decision, to dispassionate interest in establishing the mechanics of the process. I don't think there's been a mad rush to stack the committee for either side. I would actually prefer a decision on re-votes that resulted from people who cared enough about the issue to volunteer specifically, even if it were based on strongly held views (rather than a disinterested perspective).

With regard to proceeding, I think we have to stick with what's now in place (though unratified). I like the idea that has been proposed, because it appeals to me for some reason that the size of the committees corresponds to the number of people who trigger its forming. If the re-vote is initiated by five members, then five additional volunteers join them. If the re-vote is initiated by only the Mayor or the Mayor and two Rangers, fewer volunteers join them for a smaller committee. I hope I'm understanding that correctly; I'm hopping between so many different charter and summation threads that I no longer remember where I copied this from:
Quote:
As soon as the Mayor or two Rangers or any four other members step up and agree, a committee will be formed to guarantee the appropriateness of the vote (according to the rules of the companion Article), create the ballot, post the ballot and count and report the results.

If the committee is convened by the Mayor or by two current Rangers, the committee will be composed of:
• one Loremaster to ensure that the vote is consistent with the Charter;
• the Mayor or the two Rangers who requested the vote;
• volunteers sufficient to bring the size of the committee to five members.

If five members requested the vote, the committee will be composed of:
• one Loremaster to ensure that the vote is consistent with the Charter;
• the five members who requested the vote;
• five volunteers, one of whom must be a current Ranger.


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 4:56 pm
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Cerin, why don't you lead the committee discussion?


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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 5:59 pm
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Voronwe, I just don't have any experience leading anything, and I don't know how I would proceed. Also, I tend to focus on things very narrowly, whereas a leader would need to have a larger picture in mind. In addition, my manner seems to have a sort of abrasive effect on people, and I think someone with better social skills would be more effective as leader.

If you think back to the disaster that resulted when I attempted to step in and move the Mission Statement discussion along in committee, I think you'll agree that I would not be a good choice to lead the committee discussion.

:)


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 6:04 pm
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Sorry, I disagree. :) I think you would do a good job.


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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 6:13 pm
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(especially if you let yourself ;))


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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 6:23 pm
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Ax, would you have the time and/or inclination to lead the committee? You had expressed concerns for precedent and tone (rather than an involvement in the specifics of this case) and that would seem to be an excellent vantage point from which to guide the process.

:D


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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 6:29 pm
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"I'm obnoxious and disliked, you know that, sir!"


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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 7:17 pm
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Axordil wrote:
"I'm obnoxious and disliked, you know that, sir!"

Three lies for the price of one! :shock:


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truehobbit
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 7:26 pm
WYSIWYG
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:LMAO:

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 7:37 pm
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Four: that Ax is obnoxious, that he is disliked, that Cerin knows that, and that Cerin is a "sir". :P


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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 7:38 pm
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And I lie! See, I couldn't be trusted to lead. :P


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 7:49 pm
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The only leaders who can be trusted are those who don't want to lead. :P

(I don't actually agree in general, but I think it works in this case.)

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Frelga
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 8:13 pm
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Axordil wrote:
"I'm obnoxious and disliked, you know that, sir!"
1776?

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 8:14 pm
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That's the one. :D


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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 9:36 pm
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Frelga is charming and witty, AND she understood Ax's reference (whereas I did not).

Just sayin'. (hint, hint)


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Frelga
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 9:46 pm
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Aww, Cerin, I feel so validated. :) I'll even take your hint.

The line is from the musical 1776, which is a brilliant retelling of the events surrounding the signing of Declaration of Independence. This particular song is performed when the Founding Fathers are trying to decide who should write the declaration, which none seems anxiuos to do.

Here's the full text, which is not entirely inappropriate here.

But Mr. Adams
John Adams:        Alright, gentlemen, let's get on with it.  Which of us 
                   will write our declaration on independence?

Benjamin Franklin: Mr. Adams, I think you should write it.  
                   To your legal mind and brilliance, we defer.

John Adams:        Is that so?  Well, if I'm the one to do it, 
                   They'll run their quill pens through it.
                   I'm obnoxious and disliked, you know that, sir?

Benjamin Franklin: Yes, I know.
                
John Adams:        Then I say, you should write it Franklin, yes you.

Benjamin Franklin: Hell no.

John Adams:        Yes, you, Dr. Franklin, you.
Benjamin Franklin: But-
John Adams:        You!
Benjamin Franklin: But-
John Adams:        You!

Benjamin Franklin: But, Mr. Adams, but, Mr. Adams, 
                   The things I write are only light extemporania.
                   I won't put politics on paper, it's a mania, 
                   So I refuse to use a pen in Pennsylvania.

Ensemble:          Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, refuse to use the pen.

John Adams:        Mr. Sherman, I say you should write it.
                   You are never controversial, as it were.
Roger Sherman:     That is true.

John Adams:        Whereas, if I'm the one to do it, 
		   They'll run their quill pens through it.
                   I'm obnoxious and disliked, you know that, sir?       

Roger Sherman:     Yes, I do.

John Adams:        Then I say, you should write it, Roger, yes you.

Roger Sherman:     Good heavens, no!

John Adams:        Yes, you, Roger Sherman, you.
Roger Sherman:     But-
John Adams:        You!
Roger Sherman:     But-
John Adams:        You! 

Roger Sherman:     But, Mr. Adams, but Mr. Adams, 
                   I cannot write with any style or proper etiquette.
                   I do not know a participle from a predicate.
                   I am just a simple cobbler from Connecticut.

Ensemble:          Connecticut, Connecticut, a simple cobbler he.

John Adams:        Mr. Livingston, maybe you should write it.
                   You have many friends, and you're a diplomat.
		   Whereas, if I'm the one to do it, 
		   They'll run their quill pens through it.
Ensemble:          He's obnoxious and disliked, did you know that?

Robert Livingston: I hadn't heard.

John Adams:        Then I say, you should write it Robert, yes you.

Robert Livingston: Not me, Johnny.

John Adams:        Yes, you, Robert Livingston, you.
Robert Livinston:  But-
John Adams:        You!
Robert Livingston: But-
John Adams:        You! 

Robert Livingston: But, Mr. Adams, dear Mr. Adams,
                   I've been presented with a new son by the noble stork, 
                   So I going home to celebrate and pop a cork
                   With all the Livingstons together back in Old New York.

Ensemble:          New York, New York, Livingston's going to pop a cork.

John Adams:        Mr. Jefferson-

Thomas Jefferson:  Mr. Adams, leave me alone!

John Adams:        Mr. Jefferson-

Thomas Jefferson:  Mr. Adams, I beg you.  I've not seen my wife in six months.

John Adams:        You write ten times better than any man in Congress, 
                   including me.  For a man of only thirty-three years, you 
                   possess a happy talent for composition and a remarkable 
                   felicity of expression.  Now, will you be a patriot... or a 
                   lover?

Thomas Jefferson:  A lover...

John Adams:        No!

Thomas Jefferson:  But I burn, Mr. A.

John Adams:        So do I, Mr. J.

Thomas Jefferson:  You?  You do?

Benjamin Franklin: John!

Thomas Jefferson:  Who'd have thought it?

John Adams:        Mr. Jefferson, dear Mr. Jefferson, 
                   I'm only forty-one, I still have my virility, 
                   And I can romp through Cupid's grove with great agility, 
                   But life is more than sexual combustibility.
                  
Ensemble:          Bustibility, bustibility, combustibili-

John Adams:        Quiet!  Now, you'll write it, Mr. J.

Thomas Jefferson:  Who will make me, Mr. A.?

John Adams:        I!

Thomas Jefferson:  You?

John Adams:        Yes.

Thomas Jefferson:  How?

John Adams:        By, by physical force, if necessary.  It's your duty, 
                   it's your duty, damn it.

Thomas Jefferson:  Mr. Adams, damn you, Mr. Adams, 
                   you're obnoxious and disliked, that cannot be denied.
                   Once again you stand between me and my lovely bride.
                   
Ensemble:          Lovely bride.

Thomas Jefferson:  Oh, Mr. Adams, you are driving me to homicide.

Ensemble:          Homicide, homicide, we may see murder yet.

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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 10:01 pm
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Frelga, thank you so much for providing that text!

Actually, I was hinting that you would be eminently more suitable to lead the committee than myself, in the hopes that someone would say ...

Hey, Frelga! Why don't you lead the committee?! :cheerleader:


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WampusCat
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Posted: Thu 21 Jul , 2005 10:03 pm
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I think that ought to be the Official Song of b77 ... at least for Year One.

:D

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