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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 10 Aug , 2005 5:06 pm
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Yes ... I for one am not willing to go back and revisit a quorum discussion in the Jury Room right now.

The current charter committee is still convened and it's not technically an Amendment committee but rather the original committee, so I don't know if we would be required to include the Mayor ... although Eru is acting Mayor right now and she is a member of the committee ... once again, things that happen while a process is being formed tend to be different from those that happen after the process is complete .... so I think that any reasonable decision that we made would have to be accepted ...

I was just wondering if we shouldn't start a thread about in the Jury Room and formally decide to table this issue, so that there is a record that we acknowledged it. But I really don't have the stomach for more charter discussion at this time so if people want to fight out the logic of the quorum again I really don't think I could sit through it.

Jn

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Wed 10 Aug , 2005 5:56 pm
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I think it can wait.

What the committee will almost certainly decide is to change the charter language to match the numbers likely to result from the quorum formula we have—meaning that the quorum for binding votes will be determined by the same formula before and after the change, and so it won't be possible to argue that there's anything illegitimate about votes conducted in the interim.

Doesn't it make sense to change the 20% trigger rather than revisit the quorum discussion—which I think resulted in a perfectly workable formula?

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 10 Aug , 2005 6:23 pm
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I put a formal poll up in the Jury Room so that existing committee members can officially vote to postpone this issue until a more logical time. That way we'll have a record in the History Forum.

Prim, yes, whoever looks at this can change the threshold instead of changing the quorum. They can approach it any way they want, in fact. The matter of concern is member participation, so they might even attack this by changing neither the quorum nor the threshold but coming up with better ways to mobilize the members.

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 5:10 am
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A couple of issues that I want to get on record as potentially needing addressing:

1. Clarifying or replacing the language in Article 12 regarding the discussion period for amendments that says "During that period, anything deemed controversial may be removed and tabled for later consideration, or the amendment may be withdrawn."

2. Reducing the discussion period and voting period for amendments (and binding votes) to five days each (and possibly other simplifications of the process, although I can't really think of any that would work).


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Eruname
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 5:13 am
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I don't think #2 will happen. Too many people would be afraid of missing a vote.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 2:13 pm
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Also, what would be the reason for cutting the time in half? Can't think of any good to come from this, I must say.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 2:21 pm
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The good that would come of it would be that it would cut the interminable time that it takes to do anything around here down by ten days.


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fisssh
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 2:45 pm
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I don't mind the length of the voting period, but frankly I don't understand why a second discussion period is needed after the ballot is finished. There is already a discussion by members while the committee works on the ballot. At that time we have the opportunity to make any suggestions for the committee to consider and incorporate into the ballot if necessary. I think that's sufficient.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 2:51 pm
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Well, that would certainly address my first point as well. :)


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truehobbit
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 5:49 pm
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Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
The good that would come of it would be that it would cut the interminable time that it takes to do anything around here down by ten days.
I think that wouldn't be a good result at all, really. Time may seem long, but what's the gain of a few days in contrast to losing the chance for people to get their say or have questions answered? I don't like hurrying, even on the internet, where time goes so much faster.

I think it's a very good thing that after the ballot has been constructed, the committee, who was all involved in it, takes a step back and lets the members have a look at the result.

I agree, though, that it's difficult to determine what kind of objection should lead to a change in the text or to withdrawing parts of it. If members really want to participate in shaping the final ballot, they have to take part during the actual committee discussion, so to a certain extent fisssh is right that later discussion seems a bit superfluous.

Still, we've often had sensible question asked during that period - I think it's perfectly good for members not to bother about the construction of the ballot, but to want to have explanations, once it's up, on the implications of what they are supposed to vote on.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 5:57 pm
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Quote:
I think that wouldn't be a good result at all, really.
I know, Hobby dear. :kiss:


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Cerin
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 6:10 pm
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I believe we need a separate discussion period after the committee work has been completed and the amendment presented, and before the vote begins. I'm not sure it need be 10 days, though.


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truehobbit
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 6:16 pm
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I got a kiss from Voronwe! :Q

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Axordil
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 6:24 pm
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While the ten days seemed long to me too this time, we also made more than a couple of catches with regards to wording issues. I suspect that will ALWAYS be the case, since not everyone has the stomach to watch the sausage being made, er, amendment being crafted, but is nonetheless interested in helping the final result be as good as it can be.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 10 Nov , 2005 12:48 am
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Next time we do a serious amendment, we should take that opportunity to empower Loremasters to make cosmetic changes to the charter for the same of consistency if such changes are overlooked during an amendment process. Like, if 2/3 loremasters agree the change is cosmetic, they can just do it without going through an independent amendment process.

Jn

See this thread for example (and for how the issue came up):

http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic. ... um=board77

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Impenitent
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Posted: Thu 10 Nov , 2005 2:07 am
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Good idea Jn.

*Holds nose* Seeing you're bathless, want to use my shower?

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 10 Nov , 2005 2:46 am
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Imp, for heaven's sake, don't offer her a shower—if she washes her hair, she loses her Ranger mojo!

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Impenitent
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Posted: Thu 10 Nov , 2005 3:27 am
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Dirty Mojo! *shakes head*

Couldn't she get a spare bottle from the Ranger supplies? Or pinch some of Holby's? He has Mojo and to spare. ;)

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Holbytla
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Posted: Thu 10 Nov , 2005 4:01 am
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I gots my mojo workin'. Yeah baby!!
Ooooohhh behave.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 10 Nov , 2005 7:47 pm
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Are these issues still making waves?

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