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Charter Issues

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject: Charter Issues
Posted: Fri 29 Jul , 2005 3:57 am
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I'm starting this thread more as a placeholder then anything else, because there have been three suggestions at least that I have seen for potential amendments to the Charter, all of which IMO deserve serious consideration. I don't expect any kind of action to be taken on any of these things in any particular time frame (or ever, necessarily). But I know how easy it is for good ideas to get lost in the shuffle, and I did not want that to happen.

The first suggestion, made by Ax, was that we explore the possibility of placing limitations on the ability of the membership as a whole to impose edits on the posts of an individual member, against her or his will, and without the need for proving that an enforceable offense justifying a hearing has taken place. I would strongly support such an amendment.

The second suggestion, made by TORN, was that we explore the possibility of placing limits on the numbers of committees members can be on, and otherwise limit the number offices that a member can hold. This one is to my mind a bit trickier. I agree that there is a danger of having the same people constantly joining committees and otherwise influencing the direction of the community. On the other hand, there is a danger of having a vacuum, if other people don't step up instead. My suggestion, then, would be to try to craft a system where people who have not previously served on committees and such would have priority over those who have often served. That way, if no one else is willing to step up, things can still get done, but no one can dominate by repeatedly volunteering before others have a chance to do so.

The third suggestion was made by several people. It is to have a Charter provision or provisions that explicitly prohibit the Rangers and/or Mayor from keeping "secret files" about individual members. I think this is an idea that is worth considering.

Please feel free to comment about any of these suggestions, or to make your suggestions about possible areas in which the Charter may need to be eventually be amended. I would also be perfectly happy if this thread quickly dropped down the page and disappeared out of site for a while, just so that I know where I can find these thoughts when and if the time to address them arrives.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 29 Jul , 2005 12:19 pm
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Good idea, Voronwe!

It sounds as if there might be an amendment coming through regarding ToE as well, at some point in August.

Jn

Editing in links to these discussions so we don't have to hunt for them later:

Composition of Committees
http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic. ... d77#108364

Sensitive Info - Member Complaints
http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic. ... d77#108513
http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic. ... d77#108944

Editing Posts w/out a Hearing
http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic. ... um=board77

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TORN
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Posted: Fri 29 Jul , 2005 1:11 pm
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V

I like your mod on the committee composition issue -- I think that would work quite nicely.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 03 Aug , 2005 3:29 am
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Carrying this up from the jury room - re text of Binding vote article

Announcement of the vote, acceptance of volunteers, discussion of the ballot, voting, and announcement of voting results will all take place in the same thread.

This paragraph refers to the member discussion ... so that the vote cannot be moved around to prevent people from voting and the results cannot be concealed, etc. We should say "member discussion of the ballot" so that this distinction is clear.

The committee may convene in the Jury Room for discussion, and the final ballot will be presented to the Membership in the Business Forum thread created for that purpose.

This paragraph refers to the committee discussion, so that they can discuss without interruptions.

Jn

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 03 Aug , 2005 3:50 am
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I think we may want to start all ballots off in fresh threads, regardless of where they came from. It sort of looks now as if they are supposed to go into existing discussion threads, and unless those are short, the chance of the ballot getting lost seems high.

Alternatively, we could instituionalize what TED did and put the ballot at the BEGINNING of an existing thread via ranger edit. The discussion could then continue until the voting started.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 03 Aug , 2005 4:47 am
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Ax, for most of the charter convention I always left the first post of a discussion thread blank as a placeholder for the ballot.

Members express confusion and frustration when there are two many threads going on the same issue, and it's hard for the committee to know where to put things, too, when there's more than one thread to choose from.

Thing is, little protocols like that don't really belong in the charter. We probably need a Committee Handbook to go with the Ranger's handbook, the Juror's handbook and the Mayor's handbook.

Jn

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 03 Aug , 2005 3:04 pm
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Yeah, we probably do. We just kind of made it up as we went, but we had a very cooperative group, too--I can see how things might get bogged down fast if people started pulling out Robert's Rules.


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Wed 03 Aug , 2005 9:45 pm
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:salmon: :salmon: :salmon: :salmon:

No Roberts Rules....


I live with them every f'ing day of my life.

And a hand book, yes precious, or a brief outline of duties ect.

And if we ever get secret files here :rage: :rage:

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 12:33 am
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No secret files on people. Ever. But a committee handbook, sure. I would even help with it, but not till after the party. :D


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 1:09 am
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Is there a real fear of rangers keeping secret files? :scratch:

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 1:13 am
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Nah. It's a left-handed joke.

Jn

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Alatar
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 8:58 am
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Not deliberately TED, but it already sort of happened. We got a couple of warning PMs about a member from users and were discussing it in the Sensitive Info thread. So, effectively, we had created a "secret file" on a member. It was not malicious, and once we realised that this was what had happened the thread was deleted, but it shows how easy it is for something like that to happen.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

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Frelga
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 3:43 pm
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I think the Charter needs to be very specific as to when a Ranger may move posts to the BikeRacks without consulting their authors.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 4:16 pm
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Frelga wrote:
I think the Charter needs to be very specific as to when a Ranger may move posts to the BikeRacks without consulting their authors.
That's a tough one, Frelga. The Charter is already far more detailed then most people expected it to be. I think (and of course I'm biased because I'm one of the people who drafted it) that the Charter finds a good balance between limiting the power that any individual or group may hold on the one hand, but giving the existing Rangers sufficient discretion to address situations that arise. If a member believes that a Ranger has abused that discretion, there are procedures that can be used to address it.


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truehobbit
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 4:44 pm
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If someone thinks their post was moved unjustly, they should just contact the Ranger in question and maybe just repost the post (or the part of it relevant to the discussion) that was removed (if, of course, someone would abuse that right to repost things that need to go to the bike racks, that would make them look like they were disrupting the board).

I don't think it can be detailed in the charter under what conditions a Ranger may move posts to the bike racks.
What it says is that it is up to the discretion of the Ranger, and we have every reason to trust our Rangers not to remove posts without good reason. :)

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Frelga
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 4:57 pm
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That was my initial assumption, TH. :neutral: However, since my own posts were not affected, I can only wait and see what develops.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 5:23 pm
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Some posts of mine that didn't belong to the dispute in question were moved, but I'm not concerned about it and have no intention of pursuing the issue.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 5:48 pm
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We don't have to address here the issue of whether the Charter should be modified; we only have to list the things that we believe will need consideration.

No reason not to put some of the Special Powers on that list if people feel the rules are not clear enough.

Jn

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truehobbit
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 8:57 pm
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But Frelga, if your own posts were not concerned I don't understand why you should be worried.

If there's something in a moved post you wanted to reply to, and you think it still fits in the discussion from which it was removed, you can just copy and quote it in your own post, and carry it back to the original discussion that way.

Of course, if a Ranger thinks you are carrying bike racks matter back into the thread it was removed from, your post will have to go, too. =:)

I'm sorry if it looks like I'm taking this lightly - LOL, I freaked out myself once when some posts of mine were mistakenly moved in a split - but I think it's more important to allow the Rangers to keep the peace on the boards and the only tool they have at their disposal, other than kindly asking the parties to cut it, is to split posts to the bike racks.

With the repeated disturbances of the peace we have had here in the past weeks, I think it's important to make sure that people understand that this is something they may actually do, rather than just a theoretical possibility.

I don't see a danger of Rangers sending people to the bike racks by the dozen, though. :)

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TORN
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 9:16 pm
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Quote:
Nah. It's a left-handed joke.
:x :x :x HMPH!!! YET ANOTHER CASE OF ANTI-LEFTISM!!! I MUST CONSIDER FILING A COMPLAINT!!! :x :x :x

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