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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 9:32 pm
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Why TORN - the left-handed jokes are the CLEVER ones. They're the ones that hit you in layers and pack that second punch. :D

Jn

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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 10:01 pm
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truehobbit wrote:
But Frelga, if your own posts were not concerned I don't understand why you should be worried.
Because it could happen to her posts in the future.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 10:18 pm
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I agree with Voronwë's earlier post:
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
Frelga wrote:
I think the Charter needs to be very specific as to when a Ranger may move posts to the BikeRacks without consulting their authors.
That's a tough one, Frelga. The Charter is already far more detailed then most people expected it to be. I think (and of course I'm biased because I'm one of the people who drafted it) that the Charter finds a good balance between limiting the power that any individual or group may hold on the one hand, but giving the existing Rangers sufficient discretion to address situations that arise. If a member believes that a Ranger has abused that discretion, there are procedures that can be used to address it.
The problem I at least discovered during that process is that being specific is not straightforward. If we define very specifically what kind of posts can be moved to the Bike Racks, we essentially have to specifically define all such posts, because if we're specifying it on that level, we can't leave anything out that a Ranger might ever need to move. Paragraphs of stuff.

And even then we would probably have to add that in other circumstances the Ranger may use his or her discretion, because someday the unexpected is absolutely sure to come up.

There was so much careful thought to how we could make sure Rangers could not abuse their positions, that sometimes we found ourselves going too far and needing to be yanked back by some realist, usually Jn. Because at some point you have to say, okay, those safeguards will prevent the worst from happening, and beyond that point we have to trust these people—because if we don't, why are we putting them in the position in the first place? Why do we hope that they will be sensible people with good judgment if we then tie them up so that they're consulting rule books instead of using that judgment and doing their jobs?

There is recourse if a member feels strongly that a Ranger has overstepped. I think that should be our safety net, not an elaboration of the charter.

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Rowanberry
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Posted: Fri 05 Aug , 2005 11:17 am
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Frelga wrote:
I think the Charter needs to be very specific as to when a Ranger may move posts to the BikeRacks without consulting their authors.
If we started on that path, there would be no end to it, and the result might turn out quite the opposite to what was originally intended. I shouldn't think that, the purpose is to forbid the Rangers from using their own common sense?

Are you referring to posts that have nothing to do with an argument, but happen to be between argumentative posts and therefore in danger of getting moved along with them? Or, do you think that, the troublemakers in a class should be allowed to go on disturbing others, unless they attack someone physically? Because, I'm afraid, that's the idea *I* get from your post.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 05 Aug , 2005 12:33 pm
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Here's a touchy subject that some future charter committee might take up when the waters are calm ...

The charter specifically forbids harassment by PM or email, but there are two ways that harassment can happen and the text effectively addresses only one of them.

If you receive repeated emails or PM's from another member, you can complain to the Rangers about that members, and if the problem persists that member can be called to a Hearing.

But what if you are receiving one email apiece from many different members, all complaining to you about the same thing? This is just as much a harassment as being stalked by one person, in my opinion, especially if the topic is something that could and should be addressed on the board.

Two different members have complained recently about this kind of email bombardment, and I think that the carrying of disputes over into email instead of addressing them in the Bike Racks can be quite unproductive, particularly if it is a large scale brawl. I understand the logic of not dumping everything in public, but I'm afraid that too often email is used so that much sharper things can be said in person than would said in public. It would be nice if we could find a non-invasive way of letting the Rangers respond to this kind of complaint ... I'm not sure exactly how to fashion it but I think we should try.
Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 05 Aug , 2005 1:02 pm
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Rowanberry wrote:
Are you referring to posts that have nothing to do with an argument, but happen to be between argumentative posts and therefore in danger of getting moved along with them?
Rowan, in case you didn't know this, you can actually select specific posts to move, as opposed to simply moving all of the posts following the first troublesome one. That way if there posts that have nothing to do with an argument but happen to between argumentative posts, they don't have to be moved.


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Frelga
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Posted: Fri 05 Aug , 2005 6:37 pm
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Rowan, while my post here was triggered by your splitting off the posts in the Bridge Building thread, it was not intended to be a direct criticism. If it were, I would've mentioned you specifically. Mostly, I saw what could become a dangerous repressive tool in the wrong hands (again in general, not yours specifically) and it occurred to me that the Charter needs to provide some protection.

I feel that any ideas can be discussed on the messageboard, ad nauseum and until grass grows over the dead horse. That includes posts that are critical of the messageboard governance, actions of the Rangers in the official capacity, the board philosophy and other subjects where disagreement may be upsetting to some or even majority of members, inlcuding politics and religion.

Posts disparaging someone's personally, insults and character assassination, and IMO malitious gossip not backed up by hard facts (not to say that it happens here, just giving an example) are an entirely different matter. I assing no value to them. However, those things are in the eye of beholder, which is why moving them to BikeRacks is usually better than a Ranger edit or outright deletion.

The BikeRacks are also a valuable tool for resolving interpersonal conflicts without being poked by 20 people. Last time I peeked in, I saw a stellar example of its use by TH and Impy, where they were able to get enough peace and quiet to figure out that what transpired was a simple matter of
semantics.

I also object to referring to any group of posters here "as a class", although I would be proud to be classed together with most folks on this board. :)

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 05 Aug , 2005 10:22 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
Two different members have complained recently about this kind of email bombardment, and I think that the carrying of disputes over into email instead of addressing them in the Bike Racks can be quite unproductive, particularly if it is a large scale brawl.
I believe I know which two members you're talking about. If I'm correct, they both said they were leaving the board. That's why they got emails. Anybody who wanted to talked to them assumed they would not be reading the board since they did say they were leaving. How were those people to correspond with the leaving posters other than through email?

I don't think this one can be enforced.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 05 Aug , 2005 10:54 pm
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Frelga, :hug:


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sat 06 Aug , 2005 2:57 am
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Eru,

How were those people to correspond with the leaving posters other than through email?

I think that the person who is staying away from the board should still be spared unwelcome contact. They're still registered members with rights, even if not posting.

It would be a very delicate issue, I agree, to provide a truly useful alternative, but I think it deserves discussion. Perhaps, for example, a member could request that a thread be opened in their name in the Bike Racks and ask that whatever other members have to say to them be posted there if the emails are becoming too annoying. It's not really enforceable, but at least gives an alternative to those who wish to be courteous.

Sometimes being able to take the needed break - to not have to answer to people - is what allows a member to recoup and return.

This is not even at the suggestion stage yet ... but I'd like to keep the issue on the list for future discussion.

Jn

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 09 Aug , 2005 8:11 pm
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We forgot to amend in to Article 4 the responsibility of the Mayor for keeping the records needed for calculating a quorum. Alandriel called my attention to this.

The Mayor's role is mentioned in the article that contains the details of how the quorum is calculated, and it's in the Mayor's handbook, but it needs to be added to Article 4 under the record-keeping stuff.

Next time a charter committee convenes, maybe they could write that sentence for Article 4 and add it as a rider to their ballot.

Jn

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Eruname
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Posted: Tue 09 Aug , 2005 9:31 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
Eru,

How were those people to correspond with the leaving posters other than through email?

I think that the person who is staying away from the board should still be spared unwelcome contact. They're still registered members with rights, even if not posting.
I'm guessing here, but I would wager the people who contacted those staying away from the board were the people who were closer to them...one might say friends. So friends won't be able to email? Seriously, this can't be enforced.
Quote:
Perhaps, for example, a member could request that a thread be opened in their name in the Bike Racks and ask that whatever other members have to say to them be posted there if the emails are becoming too annoying.
That could work. Problem is, the people we are referring to had "left" the board.
Quote:
Sometimes being able to take the needed break - to not have to answer to people - is what allows a member to recoup and return.
Again those people didn't seem to have the intention of returning.

It doesn't sit well with me that people who say they are leaving have complained about their friends trying to talk what they believe is sense into them. It's called caring. It also pisses me off to have my emails to two people catagorized as harassment or telling them "they suck". I can practically guarantee no one did that.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 09 Aug , 2005 9:58 pm
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It doesn't sit well with me that people who say they are leaving have complained about their friends trying to talk what they believe is sense into them. It's called caring. It also pisses me off to have my emails to two people catagorized as harassment or telling them "they suck". I can practically guarantee no one did that.

Even friends might say things with good intentions that nevertheless grate, expecially if they come in large volumes. If you hear, "You're wrong," one hundred times it can start to feel like, "You suck," even if that's not what's intended and you know it. In this case the posters might not be coming back, but in future cases it could be different set of circumstances.

It's too late for this case, but I'd like to keep an option open to discuss this in the future because I think that it might help to keep the tone positive in delicate situations.

Jn

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Anthriel
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Posted: Tue 09 Aug , 2005 11:21 pm
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I just don't know how we can even know that this is happening, except after the fact.

I can just about guarantee that a dozen people didn't get together and plan to bombard anyone. I'll bet those dozen people (or however many there were) just sent one email each, and did not realize that their one email would be part of an overwhelming onslaught.

Thankfully, I did not email either of those people, even though it had occurred to me to do so. I would have felt badly had I known that my own private expression of concern would have become part of a larger "voice" that was interpreted as saying "you suck".

:(


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Eruname
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Posted: Tue 09 Aug , 2005 11:40 pm
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Anthriel wrote:
I can just about guarantee that a dozen people didn't get together and plan to bombard anyone. I'll bet those dozen people (or however many there were) just sent one email each, and did not realize that their one email would be part of an overwhelming onslaught.
You are completely correct Anthy. Those people got concerned and did what any normal person would do: contact their friend.

Another thought. Email is not under our jurisdiction. PMs are because they happens on this board. Trying to regulate emails and what a person does offsite smacks of another place.

It would be a good idea for a thread to be started like Jn suggested, but we cannot try to control what people do through email nor can we charge them for what they do through email.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 10 Aug , 2005 1:59 am
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May I correct something in my last post which I just realized sounds funny? When I said "and you know it," I meant, "and you know it was not intended," ... that is, the person who gets the email knows that insult is not intended. I didn't mean, "Eru, you know this is true," but it sounded like that when I read it later.

Regarding emails, the charter does allow intervention if a member is getting a whole lot of emails from one person, i.e. if they're being harassed. We can't actually stop the emails but there can be penalties on the board for the harassment.

This situation here is different, of course. One friend sending an email with good intentions is not harassment; and they don't know how many other people are writing at the same time. So there's no issue here of penalties or hearings. It would just be the creation of a sort of mail-drop for the member who was feeling overwhelmed. It's not really an enforceable solution, as both of you said. Whatever we did would have to be more of a courtesy.

Jn

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 10 Aug , 2005 7:55 am
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Darn. Look what I found while preparing a handbook for committees:

¶1: Committee for Amendments to the Charter
The committee will convene under three circumstances:
< >
• The quorum as calculated from a moving average falls below 20% and the board must reconsider participation requirements for Binding Votes and ratification of Charter Amendments.

Our quorum pecentage requirement based on the last seven ratification votes is 17.47%

:(

Jn

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Wed 10 Aug , 2005 1:44 pm
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:(

The problem, of course, is that we didn't know when that was written that our "active membership" number was so high.

Since obviously that bit is going to have to be rewritten to reflect reality, meaning the required quorum numbers won't change, does it seem reasonable to anyone else to let this go until after the new mayor is elected?

I think we should finish the vote that's in the hopper, have our party, elect a Mayor, and then revisit the charter.

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 10 Aug , 2005 1:51 pm
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Is there a time limit written in? Or is it open to interpretation as to just how soon the committee has to be formed?


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Wed 10 Aug , 2005 1:56 pm
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AHA! I was just reading the new handbook for committees. The Mayor must be a member of the charter amendment committee.

We don't have a Mayor yet. It seems to me this business has to wait.

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