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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 4:48 pm
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Alatar, I think I remember that post. I took it to mean they were glad the thread was quiet as they didn't have a lot of time. It's a bit like going into a room and seeing a couple of friends and saying,'I'm glad I've caught you on your own.' Seeing a group of friends chatting can be off putting but persistance can be worth it. I tend to blunder around in all sorts of places. I tend to keep out of the Orphanage, not because they are tight knit (though they are) but because the portmanteau messages frighten me. I have been driven out of the Flirting Thread by the sheer weight of (in my old eyes) spam but there's tons of rooms here. I think n00bs have to sum us up by what they read; if there are ways to make it easier for them to butt in I'm all for it but I don't think we should be over sensitive.

edit for silly format mistake

Last edited by ToshoftheWuffingas on Thu 11 Aug , 2005 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 4:50 pm
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I think some of us are just more naturally inclined to one type of conversation than another (as opposed to posters who are comfortable everywhere).

Speaking personally, it is my own lack of social grace and wit that keeps me out of the chat threads. I just don't know 'how' to do that. I think it's probably all too easy to take an awareness that one feels awkward in a certain type of conversation, and have it morph into a feeling that one isn't welcome there.


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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 5:25 pm
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Fixer:

I think it is possible to have justifiable pride in getting more stuff right than one has gotten before, without jumping into the arrogance of believing one has gotten in perfect. As I have noted, if we didn't feel we were building a better MB, why would we bother to have a new one at all? Apart from the fact that some of us would be effecitvely orphaned, of course. :neutral:

But to go back to your metaphor: if you saw two people at a party, one being hesitant about presenting their ideas, the other being enthusiastic, which would you gravitate towards? Enthusiasm need not be arrogant, just as humility need not be uncertain.


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Fixer
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 5:53 pm
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For the record, I hate doing this multiple answer/quote/question thing but I fear if I do not I'll get things muddled.
Alatar wrote:
Sorry, I'm a little confused here. Did you just call me arrogant? Cause that's what it looked like to me.
You have come across in that manner to me, yes. Don't get offended because we all are arrogant to a certain degree. That is why I am saying we need to be watchful of it and try not to behave so for both our own sakes as well as the sake of those around us.
Alatar wrote:
In all my posts here, where have I given you that impression?
Well you have only responded to a couple of my posts but each has been a bit derogatory as to both my character and my methods. Don't worry, though, I don't take it personal. I am trying to figure out how to explain myself to you but we seem to speak two different languages that use the same words.
Alatar wrote:
I called you on what I feel to be your increasingly militant stance on the board and asked you why you feel it's necessary. Was that a reason to start accusing me of arrogance and pride?
I thought I answered you but I obviously was not clear. I shall try again.

The problem that has been described is one of people bumping egos (ergo, pride). Persons with egos too large tend to squish those that do not. The smaller become isolated, abandoned, and eventually depart or become bitter. Only if we (and I do include myself in there) can keep our egos down a manageable size will we not be so intimidating to newcomers nor will we disagree amongst each other as often.
Alatar wrote:
It strikes me that you should be looking closer to home when you challenge people to think before reacting.
Did you get ANYTHING out of my earlier post? Anything positive at all?

:(

Somewhere I will find the words that will not offend you. I shall continue to look. I am not a gifted communicator.
Cerin wrote:
Or to put it another way, it seems to me you tried to explain Alatar to himself, rather than attempting to explain yourself to him.
That was what I was seeing of him. That is what I was trying to point out but I believe he viewed it as a personal attack.
Axordil wrote:
But to go back to your metaphor: if you saw two people at a party, one being hesitant about presenting their ideas, the other being enthusiastic, which would you gravitate towards? Enthusiasm need not be arrogant, just as humility need not be uncertain.
I would approach the hesitant person because that is my nature.

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 6:19 pm
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Quote:
I would approach the hesitant person because that is my nature.
I suspect that's a minority point of view.


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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 6:26 pm
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Fixer wrote:
Cerin wrote:
Or to put it another way, it seems to me you tried to explain Alatar to himself, rather than attempting to explain yourself to him.
That was what I was seeing of him. That is what I was trying to point out
That strikes me as an unusual way to approach a public on-line conversation with someone you hardly know. Have you heard the saying, 'how can you say to your brother, "let me remove the speck that is in your eye," when you do not see the plank that is in your own eye?'

I think it is probably best if we stick to explaining ourselves, rather than telling other posters what is wrong with them. I wonder what others think about this?


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Frelga
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 6:29 pm
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Cerin wrote:
That strikes me as an unusual way to approach a public on-line conversation with someone you hardly know. Have you heard the saying, 'how can you say to your brother, "let me remove the speck that is in your eye," when you do not see the plank that is in your own eye?'

I think it is probably best if we stick to explaining ourselves, rather than telling other posters what is wrong with them. I wonder what others think about this?
I knew if I waited long enough Cerin would say exactly what I was thinking. Down to the Bible quote, which I was struggling to recollect.

Axordil, I would probably approach the shy one, too. Birds of a feather...

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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 6:36 pm
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Axordil wrote:
Quote:
I would approach the hesitant person because that is my nature.
I suspect that's a minority point of view.
Actually, Ax, that's EXACTLY what I tend to do.

I feed off of enthusiastic people, there's no denying that. But I think I can so strongly empathize with the bystanders, that I tend to seek them out. My friends call me a "golden retriever", from a personality class we all took together, because I will seek out the one who is hurting, or shy, and be drawn to that person.

We have had several holiday gatherings at my place of business, and I always feel for the spouses of. You know, the people who are known as "Cindy's husband" or "Garry's wife". They tend to be very intelligent shy people, who are massively uncomfortable at such occasions. I like to hang out with them.

It helps that I speak Geek. :)


But I think your point is well made. The brightest and shiniest are definitely the most eye-catching, that is for sure.




Cerin, is it possible for you to put on a bathing suit and join us at the beach party? If you can build a virtual sand castle or intelligently discuss the awkward aspects of nude beaches, you'll fit right in. :)


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Fixer
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 6:45 pm
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Cerin wrote:
Fixer wrote:
Cerin wrote:
Or to put it another way, it seems to me you tried to explain Alatar to himself, rather than attempting to explain yourself to him.
That was what I was seeing of him. That is what I was trying to point out
That strikes me as an unusual way to approach a public on-line conversation with someone you hardly know.
AHA! I figured out what I was trying to say! Thank you, Cerin.

I am new.

I don't know Alatar from Adam.

If I *WAS* the type who could be intimidated by a person's negativity, Alatar would be doing so by his responses to my posts. Although not specific to Alatar, that behavior style is what I am saying needs to be self-moderated.

*is quite pleased with himself for figuring out how to get that out*

...

Although I just KNOW this is going to be misinterpreted somehow. My luck for communication has never been that good.

(Oh, and I always talk to everyone like I have known them forever. It is how I deal with strangers and not get stressed out by my lack of social skills.)

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 6:50 pm
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Personal experience and years of people-watching demonstrate to me that even people who SAY they don't pay attention to charismatic people do in fact just that. They just beat themselves up for it later...

But there is an important distinction: we might want to LISTEN to the charismatic person. We might not have the gumption to CONVERSE with them. Shy people on the other hand, we might be comfortable about conversing with...but we would have to notice they are there in the first place.

But perhaps looking at this in terms of people isn't the best analogy anyway...or the most complete. When someone is looking for a MB to hang out at, what is the FIRST thing that gets them interested? Assuming for the moment they are already HERE, whether because a friend suggested us or whatever. They start looking around at threads, and seeing who is talking about what...and if it looks appealing at all.

Things that seem TO ME to be appealing, in no particular order:

1) Humor
2) Complete sentences
3) Respect between posters (lack of screaming/name calling)
4) Comfort level between posters (cozy but not familiar to the point of being exclusionary)
5) Interesting topics (what they are is pure taste, so really this is a way of saying...
6) Wide variety of topics
7) Wide variety of voices

Note that attitude towards new people is not present on the list, because one would have to do a LOT of reading to find a spot where any evidence of it can be gleaned...by which time 1-7 above would be pretty well established one way or the other.

The trick is not to make EVERY thread of ours look good with respect to the above list (or your eqivalent). That's not possible without severe moderation. The trick is to make ENOUGH of our threads up to snuff for people who may or may not know us.

The flip side of the list--things that are going to make me LESS likely to stick around:

1) Netspeak
2) Dittoism
3) Jerks
4) Whining, whether bonafide or not, as compared to honestly asking for help
5) Too narrow a range of topics, EVEN IF IT'S SOMETHING I LIKE. I get bored easily, sorry. :D

It's a shorter list because it takes less time to annoy me into leaving than it takes to convince me to stay. For that reason, I think we SHOULD attempt to avoid these in EVERY thread, and some are explicitly forbidden by the Charter towards that end.


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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 7:03 pm
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Ax, I really think you're on to something here.

And as a bona fide shy person, I will readily admit I am drawn to charismatic people. I am somewhat envious of that level of self-confidence, actually... and I don't beat myself up for it at all. They ARE shiny and beautiful.. :sunny:
Quote:
we might want to LISTEN to the charismatic person. We might not have the gumption to CONVERSE with them.
Absolutely true. Something I deal with all the time, here and in RL.
Quote:
Things that seem TO ME to be appealing, in no particular order:

1) Humor
2) Complete sentences
3) Respect between posters (lack of screaming/name calling)
4) Comfort level between posters (cozy but not familiar to the point of being exclusionary)
5) Interesting topics (what they are is pure taste, so really this is a way of saying...
6) Wide variety of topics
7) Wide variety of voices

Note that attitude towards new people is not present on the list, because one would have to do a LOT of reading to find a spot where any evidence of it can be gleaned...by which time 1-7 above would be pretty well established one way or the other.


Your list is great... and certainly a reflection of what lured me into posting at TORC, and what keeps me here.

Unfortunately, the "attitude towards new people" not being on the list may have something to do with the fact... err... that you are not a new person. :)

I remember being pretty intimidated to post at Movies, back in the day, because there was a real rash of n00bs jumping in saying dumb things at the time I was lurking and oldbies being pretty terse or condescending to them.

THAT attitude did affect my willingness to participate as a newbie, unfortunately... although, obviously, it did not sour me on eventually biting the bullet and jumping in. :)


P.S. Is "dittoism" just the :yes: kind of comment?


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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 7:04 pm
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Fixer wrote:
If I *WAS* the type who could be intimidated by a person's negativity, Alatar would be doing so by his responses to my posts. Although not specific to Alatar, that behavior style is what I am saying needs to be self-moderated.
Well, that does seem more constructive. :)

So are you saying regarding what makes people feel comfortable on a messageboard, that with people we don't know we should be extra careful to moderate our tone so that we don't intimidate them?

I know my tendency (before coming here) had been to approach ideas rather than the people behind them, so that I didn't differentiate between those I knew and those I didn't. In fact, this has gotten me off on the wrong foot with other posters more than once. Heaven knows how many people I frightened away on the other messageboard I frequented.


Frelga :hug:


Thank you for that kind invitation, Anthriel. I haven't quite got the hang of virtually doing stuff. :D But I will stop by and at least see what you are up to. :)


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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 7:09 pm
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Well, Prim is on vacation so her bathing machine is empty. Perhaps you would like to just hide in there and peek out at the festivities.

But make sure you bring a bathing suit... :)


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Frelga
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 7:25 pm
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Cerin wrote:
I know my tendency (before coming here) had been to approach ideas rather than the people behind them, so that I didn't differentiate between those I knew and those I didn't.
I also look for ideas first, when I approach a messageboard. Only recently did I begin to form personal friendships with other posters. It was a wonderful, precious gift - to get to know people behind the screen names and to learn what lovely individuals they are, but to me it was an unexpected bonus, not the reason for joining.

Still, I do keep in mind that there is a real human being behind the posts, and I try to pick my words with care so that I debate the idea, and not attack the person. "Try" being the key word. :oops:

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 7:43 pm
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Unfortunately, the "attitude towards new people" not being on the list may have something to do with the fact... err... that you are not a new person.
Actually, it has to do with the difference between the context of TORC in the height of LOTR frenzy and us now. You managed to find a thread with, as you say, a rash of noobs--not too hard to do, then. We can't count on that happening here as a barometer for new people to judge us by. I'm not saying we SHOULDN'T be nice to new people, of course, only that it's not the crucial thing that gets us new faces. By the time someone makes their first few posts, they have already decided they like us, based on their own "list."

I would actually submit that what almost ran you off was on the other list: people being jerks. That includes being rude to new folks.


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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 7:55 pm
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Ax, it wasn't just one thread, it was prevalent in the whole darned forum.

But I did notice that it was just a few oldbies who were behaving in such an unkind manner, and decided that that's just the way they were; I could easily enough ignore them if they acted that way towards me, since their pattern towards n00bs was so well established.

Besides, most of what was annoying them was behavior that even I could see was... well.... annoying. ;)

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

Cerin and Frelga, I would characterize both of you as being able to outline your thoughts very clearly without ever seeming gruff or patronizing. You each are quite a good model to follow, actually... :D


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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 8:05 pm
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Ax, it wasn't just one thread, it was prevalent in the whole darned forum.
Of course it was. It was the Movies forum in 2001-2003. You couldn't spit without hitting a noob. (go ahead, find the smiley for that, I dare you. :D)

That's not our situation, nor will it ever be. Which is probably a good thing.


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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 8:45 pm
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Edited for good taste.

Last edited by Anthriel on Thu 11 Aug , 2005 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 8:54 pm
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That looks more like vomiting than spitting to me. :suspicious:


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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 11 Aug , 2005 9:07 pm
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Edited for good taste.

Last edited by Anthriel on Thu 11 Aug , 2005 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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