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May I suggest....

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Estel
Post subject: May I suggest....
Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 5:06 pm
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For those who think that ToE should be 18+ only for our own protection, that you look at this 13+ website.

Society for Human Sexuality

Then, for those who can access the ToE, actually read the non-"political" threads in there.



Surprising how tame we are here, isn't it. When you actually read the threads that is.


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 5:12 pm
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It's actually an 18+ website, as they say in several places including their terms of service, but I agree that it's interesting.

I'll take your word for the ToE content. Others have said they don't want irregulars reading it, and I have to respect that. In fact I have never thought it was porn, never said it was porn, believe in and respect its value to its members.

How do we go about getting actual hard facts about what we need to do to protect ourselves (on a new site, where phpbber restrictions won't be a problem)? There is no point in continuing to argue about whether the age 18 rule does or doesn't apply; we need to find out.

Edit: The first two paragraphs of the Terms of Use of the site you linked:
Quote:
The documents available through the Society for Human Sexuality web site at http://www.sexuality.org/ represent a selection of writings pertinent to sexual health and pleasure. We hope they will prove valuable for personal, scholarly, and (ultimately) historical research. They are intended for mutually consenting, responsible adults.

Please be aware that many of these files will discuss sexual issues in a frank manner. If you may not legally possess or read such material in your area, if you feel that such material would offend you, or if you do not freely wish to read such material for your own education or enjoyment, then you must leave this site immediately. You may not read any of these files if you are under the age of 18.
I put this here not to be combative but to point out that they at least do seem to feel it's a potential problem for people under 18 to read their site.

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Estel
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 5:29 pm
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I stand corrected. Most 18+ websites I've been to have a little thing you have to click on before you can even get in. It's usually not just open to the net. I've been going to that site since I was 18 (8 years ago) and have not read the ToS since then, and usually just go straight to the sections I am referencing to.

No, it's not about the age anymore. What it is about, is people thinking that what we're posting is somehow more detailed and more.... sexual than it actually is. People who say that under 18s shouldn't be allowed in there, without even reading to see what is in there.

I've gotten mail here from people in the past saying not to vote for this or that without reading the whole thread. Without having the full knowledge. Does that mean I want everyone on this board to have access to the ToE for a day to read before deciding on something that will affect it? Of course not.

But those people who are coming into the ToE. Who are forming an incredibly strong opinion about what restrictions there should and shouldn't be.... they need to read the threads and make an informed opinion. Conjecture only carries one so far.

I posted this outside the ToE because I wanted to make a point. Maybe those that have access, have strong opinions, but never go in there. ... Maybe they'll ask themselves to make an opinion based on what's there, rather than what they think is there.


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 5:38 pm
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You make a good point, Estel.

I think we need legal advice on the 18+ thing (although I'm not optimistic that it will turn out to be bendable for a U.S. site), but also on what exactly constitutes "sexual content."

Again, the site you link doesn't make me hopeful—they're a U.S. site, have presumably taken legal advice, do not post anything pornographic, and still feel they must have an age-18 restriction.

I've said this before: my concern here is a legal concern, not a moral one. Right here and now the risk is phpbber pulling the plug on us, not so much lawsuits. After we move and change ownership, I doon't know what the risks will be.

We just need real answers. It would be useless for either "side" to win its argument in a knowledge vacuum, and it's pointless to go on slugging when understanding the law would settle the problem one way or another.

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Estel
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 5:49 pm
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Primula_Baggins wrote:
Again, the site you link doesn't make me hopeful—they're a U.S. site, have presumably taken legal advice, do not post anything pornographic, and still feel they must have an age-18 restriction.
Did you read any of the personal stories there? :devil: Perhaps not picture wise, but reading material wise, I would consider a lot on that website to be pornographic.


And that's me talking :Q
Prim wrote:
I've said this before: my concern here is a legal concern, not a moral one. Right here and now the risk is phpbber pulling the plug on us, not so much lawsuits. After we move and change ownership, I doon't know what the risks will be.
That's kind of why I would like to see us move to a co.uk site or some such. All we would have to do is agree on that, and most of this discussion would be unnecessary. Frankly, I can't help but think that that would be a good thing.

Prim wrote:
We just need real answers. It would be useless for either "side" to win its argument in a knowledge vacuum, and it's pointless to go on slugging when understanding the law would settle the problem one way or another.
Very true. The question is, do we try to find those answers ourselves, and hope that the person/people doing the research aren't biased one way or another, or do we try and find an unbiased outsider to do it?


I made a mountain out of a molehill when this whole thing started, and I'm afraid that other people followed my lead in that. Between all of us, we've managed to turn it into a bigger problem than it was originally. Now, it's just trying to make it better.

Kind of like cleaning a house - it always gets dirtier before it gets clean.


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Lidless
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 5:52 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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ToE isn't that dirty. Frank and open, yes, but not that dirty. :blackeye:

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 5:56 pm
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More excellent points, Estel. Including the tidying up bit.

This is why I keep asking "How do we find the answer?" Because it does need to be found, but in a way that everyone is satisfied that the answer is unbiased. Which means it needs to be found by someone with no ax to grind—maybe a ToE member who also understands and cares about the boardwide issues.

Edit: Clearly I must research that site more closely, Lidless. :devil:

My own unwillingness to participate in ToE has nothing to do with puritanical attitides toward sex, BTW. It has to do with how much I feel comfortable knowing about the sex lives of my friends, or telling them about mine. I have a low threshold there, that's all. Some folks do.

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Fixer
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 6:14 pm
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Well, given this is an internet board, the easiest way to set it up is to have it voluntary admittance only for those 18+. Persons under 18 must have written permission from their parent (with a phone number to verify) to participate. No one will have access to that area until they ask after the waiting period (established at 3 months if I recall correctly). I believe it is already set up like this, actually.

Legally, that should cover the board's ass. This it not a porn site so it doesn't require any more warning than already exists. The three month waiting period should suffice to weed out anyone who displays a level of immaturity proving them to obivously be a minor and requiring of adult supervision. If a pre-18 year old manages to behave like a 'grownup' for three months then you have reasonable legal ground to protect yourself from contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

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Lidless
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 6:18 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Crosspost:

We're like a blind person in a cellar at midnight chasing a black cat...that isn't there. The only way I can see is, indeed, to take legal advice on this 18+ issue. It burns us.

With that in mind, I will take copies of this forum to a (US) laywer and ask for his opinion about:

1 Lowering the access to the legal age of consent of the person's country (16 if the poster is UK-based etc).

2 Lowering the age of consent to 13 overall

3 The issues regarding geography of both the registered name and the server - particularly in respect of the above points.

Art. 1.B.4 states, "You must also refrain from maliciously spreading information posted by others in that forum."

From that, I deem that it is OK to share this forum with said lawyer, but I thought I'd give you a heads-up on it.

Is there anything else I should ask? Please reply in this thread, so non-ToE members can access it. Please keep it to ToE business as US lawyers are the scum of the earth, and the less money I give them the better I feel.

Lidless: I wish the bill had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

Others: So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time charges that are given to us. There are other forces at work in this world Lidless besides the will of lawyers. Estel was meant to found the forum, in which case you also were meant to have the bill. And that is an encouraging thought.

Last edited by Lidless on Mon 29 Aug , 2005 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 6:22 pm
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Fixer, there's a whole history here, and believe me, just about every solution has been discussed and discussed and discussed. And the "written permission" idea does not work. A U.S. kid under 18 can't buy cigarettes even if he has a note from his mom saying it's OK.

The present arrangement may not be adequate to the present situation, and ToE members are discussing possible solutions.

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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 6:24 pm
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So long as no real-life names are in what you show the lawyer, Lidless, it should be all right, especially given the intent. I don't think it counts as malicious in any way, shape or form.

:hug: Thanks.

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Lidless
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 6:28 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Fixer, I'd hate to think I live in a world where imparting or sharing a good sexual technique to a 17 yo would be deemed as delinquency of a minor. That's all ToE is, really, sharing information and opinions.

It's when you suggest that you meet up and give a practical demonstration to said 17yo that the problems begin, and there are other board-wide provisions in the Charter that cover that.

Last edited by Lidless on Mon 29 Aug , 2005 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 6:33 pm
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Well, we will have an actual answer soon, I hope.

Thanks, Lidless. :)

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Lidless
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 6:34 pm
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Axordil wrote:
So long as no real-life names are in what you show the lawyer, Lidless, it should be all right, especially given the intent. I don't think it counts as malicious in any way, shape or form.

:hug: Thanks.
To be honest, I'm the only one who is referred to by their first name as often as their board name. I'm pretty sure the lawyer will figure it out, so if anyone is going to have to blush, it's going to be me. Estel and I have been somewhat open in ToE. But you know what? Fuck It All. It has to be done.

Edit: I was going to suggest that the lawyer would put two and two together, but in ToE that would suggest a foursome.
:Wooper:

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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 6:49 pm
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:damnfunny:

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moonfariegalena
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 7:10 pm
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that`s excellent, lidless...thanks :D

Estel, what you say about other "people thinking that what we're posting is somehow more detailed and more.... sexual than it actually is."
for me, it was always a matter of legality of the whole thing...
everyone here, can decide for themselves which parts of b77 they wish to participate in or not, and if they choose not to participate in ToE that is their rights....
however, the doors of ToE are open and they can come and see for themselves what its all about, and ONLY then can we talk about what ToE should or shouldn`t be...
for me, that`s where it begins and ends.... ;)

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Fixer
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 7:14 pm
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The Lidless Eyes wrote:
Fixer, I'd hate to think I live in a world where imparting or sharing a good sexual technique to a 17 yo would be deemed as delinquency of a minor. That's all ToE is, really, sharing information and opinions.

It's when you suggest that you meet up and give a practical demonstration to said 17yo that the problems begin, and there are other board-wide provisions in the Charter that cover that.
I, personally, don't have a problem with it. I do recognize, however, that parents have the right to restrict ANYTHING they want to until a child reaches the age of 18, regardless of how mature that 'child' may be. It is a pain in the ass, but it is still (for the majority of the persons here) the law of the land.

On a personal level I have had to give advice on sexual matters to minors without their parents consent, but this is not a matter of personal advice as much as it is what is in writing in the charter. What is in the charter (and enforced to a reasonable doubt) is what the courts will look at in the event someone causes a stink.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 29 Aug , 2005 11:26 pm
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Legal advice may curtail all the angst; thanks Lidless.

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Estel
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Posted: Tue 30 Aug , 2005 12:24 am
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Stella in another thread wrote:
I would like the ToE to remain here. I would like for this argument to move on to a peaceful resolution so we can all be friends without it hanging over our heads.

What do you guys say we stop talking about this issue and suspend all new access to the ToE forum until after we get the advice of a lawyer?
Yes? No? Is this a good idea?


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moonfariegalena
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Posted: Tue 30 Aug , 2005 6:07 am
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good idea :)

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I've been making a list of the things they don't teach you at school. They don't teach you how to love somebody. They don't teach you how to be rich or how to be poor. They don't teach you how to know what's going on in someone else's mind. They don't teach you what to say to someone who's dying. They don't teach you anything worth knowing.

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