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ToE Junior - An End Run round the problem?

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Post subject: ToE Junior - An End Run round the problem?
Posted: Wed 07 Sep , 2005 9:43 am
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We obviously have people who for legitimate reasons of their own would have to leave ToE if it was opened up to younger members, yet we still have many younger members who might be in need of advice. Perhaps the problem is that we're trying to make ToE all things to all people.

Very few people under 18 are going to feel the need to discuss threesomes, fidelity, anal play etc. simply because most teenagers would not have reached that level of variety. What they do need is a place to talk about their insecurities, their confusion over many aspects of relationships, including, but not limited to sex.

What I'm suggesting is that we have a Thinking of England Junior forum, or call it something else, a Life and Love forum, a Flirting forum, whatever. It would be visible only to members and would not be a "sex forum". This is not to say that sex could not be discussed there, but that it would be less "frank" than in ToE.

Obviously there are two questions here.

Firstly, would people be happy with this option? Is it too patronising?

Secondly, would it cover us legally? Since it's not a "Sex Forum" would it be legitimate? Surely the sort of situations we have discussed in the past like STDs and the Girlie thread would be perfectly safe and legal in the context of a forum for teens?

This may be the monumentally stupidest idea ever, but I thought I'd throw it out there for discussion.

Your thoughts?

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I'll post this in business also for those who do not have access here.

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Pippin4242
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Posted: Wed 07 Sep , 2005 3:21 pm
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It's a good idea if you're after a compromise I guess, but I don't think I'd want to use it particularly. I'm after full participation in TOE, since I'm not a minor. It's not like I mind waiting, it's just I've done my waiting to be allowed to be involved in this sort of thing. I'd really really like the b77 age of consent lowered, whether I'd end up using TOE or not. I understand there are legal issues involved, and I liked the idea of attempting to move the forum to a European server, although I have no idea how that would work. :)

Thanks for starting this discussion Alatar, and thanks especially for the PM.

...Do we actually have any underage posters any more? Rune is underage by a couple of months, right? The youngest people to have given their ages are all past the age of consent in their home countries, it's Americans I'm confused about.

*~Pips~*

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Impenitent
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Posted: Thu 08 Sep , 2005 12:58 am
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Alatar, good-hearted attempt to fill a need, but I think it would end up complicating things.

And who would post in a mini-ToE? Those between the ages of 16 - 18? How many of them ARE there? I think it could get lonely in there - or just die of disuse.

Or if the idea is to allow older folk in there too - well, I'm not sure how many would seek membership, and what their purpose would be. Agony aunts? A selfless role, I guess, but I suspect there are many who would feel wary of taking on that kind of responsibility.

Not sure.

Nice idea but I suspect impractical.

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peeg
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Posted: Thu 08 Sep , 2005 9:59 am
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Well, since you asked Pippin, i am one of those few underaged posters on B77.

It's not a bad idea, actually, but i have to agree with Imp. There aren't many of us within the 16-18 range....i can only really think of maybe one or two posters apart from myself. And the ToE forum is sufficient for whatever delicate issues we might need to discuss. It's nice to know you care enough to want to give us our own forum, but i doubt it would hold up for long....either that or become a warped sort of fandom forum....i mean, all those hormones running wild.... ;)

Surely advice for teens can be found anywhere on B77....we don't need a specific forum for it. And those of us who are underage are still smart enough to know what we'll read in the ToE forum, and what we'd rather not, so if you guys are worried about would be inapproprait for us to read, or what someone would feel uncomfortable about us reading.....well, i can really only speak for myself here. But you know what i mean.

Thanks for pointing me here Alatar. I'm glad i could give my opinion :)

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Alatar
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Posted: Thu 08 Sep , 2005 11:07 am
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Peeg,

The problem is that ToE is supposed to be limited to over 18's only and we may have to enforce that retrocatively. In that case, where would our teen posters go to ask about this sort of issue.

To clarify, I'm not referring to a "Teen Only" forum, but rather a forum that has the privacy aspects of ToE without the more frank sexual discussion.

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Pippin4242
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Posted: Thu 08 Sep , 2005 4:20 pm
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peeg wrote:
Well, since you asked Pippin, i am one of those few underaged posters on B77.

It's not a bad idea, actually, but i have to agree with Imp. There aren't many of us within the 16-18 range....i can only really think of maybe one or two posters apart from myself.
Satch, Leafy, Rune, Mossy, Nineor Sharkattack, Sugaplum, Fras, and me. I think. There are probably more than I know of too. Borry? Elfky? However, of these Satch, Leafy, Suga, Fras and I would certainly be allowed to access ToE if it were to move to a European server, since we are past the age of consent in our home countries.

My main problem is that I would like to talk about adult matters. Not that I'm calling myself particularly mature or anything, just that since it's something I'm allowed to do, why shouldn't I be able to talk about it?

...damn... *finally gets it* Are some of the Europeans who were legal when they joined allowed in ToE? :scratch:

*~Pips~*

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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Thu 08 Sep , 2005 4:43 pm
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If it is any consolation pips, this has been hotly debated in the ToE for quite a while. Very briefly, while many people wish to see people who have passed the age of consent in their own countries allowed in, several American posters whom we respect have said that they face losing their jobs if they are found contributing to this message board if that forum allows under 18 year olds, whatever country they are from. It is quite a quandary. Alatar's proposal is an attempt to cut the Gordian knot.

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Pippin4242
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Posted: Thu 08 Sep , 2005 8:55 pm
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So American law applies internationaly? I don't know much about how these things work, but... :neutral:

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Leafy
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Posted: Thu 08 Sep , 2005 9:22 pm
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I'm with Imp that another forum just wouldn't work, not just for the reason that people would be wary of the Agony Aunt role, but for Pips' view that i would like to talk about anything adult that concerns me. I am actually one of those "very few" 16-18 year olds that might well want to discuss threesomes, fidelity and anal play. In fact before i left ToE i had already talked about the first two.

Also, no matter how hard you tried to make it a sex-free ToE, i still think it would be labelled as the "Teen Forum". I would feel patronised by that, and also it may prevent older posters who need sexual advice that may be applicable to someone my age from posting, as they may be embarassed. Alternatively, they would post in the main forum, and the "minors" could miss out on useful discussion.

I think the only good solution that would include everyone necessary would be to move ToE to a European domain, so that legal charges are avoided for concerned Americans.

Bless you Alatar for trying, i think you've handled this whole situation exceptionally well. :love:

But frankly, from the moment the thread about age in ToE flared up, i've just wanted the whole affair to be over. I'd rather back out and wait my turn than cause needless arguing. It really, really frustrates and discourages me.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 08 Sep , 2005 9:26 pm
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American law applies to messageboards on American servers, Pips, but there's also a problem even if the server is moved overseas: Americans with professional codes of ethics (say, attorneys) or who hold public positions such as teaching or a government job could get in trouble if it became known that they were part of b77, if b77 gives people under 18 access to sexual information. This applies even if the server is overseas. It isn't fair, but it appears to be true.

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satch
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Posted: Thu 08 Sep , 2005 10:06 pm
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As a younger member of this board, I would like to say that I would dislike having a Thinking of England Junior Forum, for several reasons.

We have TOE which is to talk about all aspects of sex in whatever detail people deem necessary, and then we have the rest of the board. There's no need for any mid-way point.

I don't particularly "get" the whole goings on anyways, mainly because I haven't been reading the thread(s?) in TOE due to people's problems with "minors" in there, so I'm glad there's now at least a little bit of opening where we can state our views also.

I personally never really saw why a discussion online about sexual issues was worse than picking up an issue of Cosmo or some other magazine and reading the exact same things. It's not a porn forum, it's a sex forum, and so I can't really see why it should be hushed up - aside from those fantastic legal issues.

But anyways, I actually only wanted to say that I don't like the idea, but it's a nice try thanks Alatar.

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peeg
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Posted: Sat 10 Sep , 2005 2:23 am
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Ahhhh, ok, now i get it....well, more than i got it before, anyway. Personally, i wouldn't mind if you guys banned under 18s from going to the ToE forum, seeing as i rarely go there myself, but i know others would....so the best solution does seem to be to move this board to a European domain. Which would probably be much harder than just making another, separate forum for us under-18s, but that just wouldn't work.

It's your call Alatar. And i think you're being really good about this too :hug: :)

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sat 10 Sep , 2005 2:44 am
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The problem is that there would still be American adults who would be taking a professional risk being on b77 even if the server was overseas.

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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Sat 10 Sep , 2005 2:56 am
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Primula_Baggins wrote:
The problem is that there would still be American adults who would be taking a professional risk being on b77 even if the server was overseas.
If this is the final answer, then surely it has to be dispositive.


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Legolas the elf
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Posted: Sat 10 Sep , 2005 3:02 am
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Who do I have to cyberfuck to get access to ToE?


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sat 10 Sep , 2005 3:06 am
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tolkienpurist wrote:
Primula_Baggins wrote:
The problem is that there would still be American adults who would be taking a professional risk being on b77 even if the server was overseas.
If this is the final answer, then surely it has to be dispositive.
That is my impression, not a legal opinion (I'm not qualified). I know Voronwë has expressed similar concerns. It's my concern as well—I don't mean to downplay the importance of ToE to its members, but if letting under-18s in would keep a whole class of professional adults from participating on b77 even outside of ToE, I hope we could look at the situation with some perspective.

I also wonder if simply having ToE on a different server of its own, maybe an overseas one, would solve both problems?

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sat 10 Sep , 2005 3:08 am
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Prim, at this point, that would definitely be my preference.

Legolas, was that a serious question? As of today, if you are 18 years of age or older, have been on the board three months, and have at least 100 posts, all you have to do is ask a Ranger to enable you to read and write in the forum.

Jn

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Legolas the elf
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Posted: Sat 10 Sep , 2005 4:27 am
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Thanks, Jn. :)


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Fixer
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Posted: Sun 11 Sep , 2005 12:50 pm
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In times previous, my experience with persons underage discussing such matters with those more experienced has been on an individual basis (usually through private messages or IMs) as opposed to an open forum for public debate. If the board was to have an underage portion of the forum for discussion of sexual and intimate details AND if a parent discovered their child was participating without their permission, the board AND the individuals participating could be found guilty of contibuting to the deliquency of a minor. Whether or not the minor consented is irrelevant to the law as US law says that persons under the age of 18 are not 'mentally competent' to make decisions for themselves (stupid, but we work with what we have to work with).

I highly recommend against a junior ToE. Just wait until the server gets moved somewhere where there are no such legal hurdles and then open ToE to the lower age groups.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Sun 11 Sep , 2005 11:54 pm
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I, too, think a junior ToE forum is unnecessary.

I'm not sure how to resolve this issue. I do know that I thought it seemed unfair that various posters got booted from the forum after we opened after they had done their time, put in their post counts, etc. I understand why it was done, but that doesn't mean I agree.

I agree with Impy that the junior ToE might suffer from disuse. It seems like a waste of a forum to me, unless we're going for the title of "most forums on one messageboard". Perhaps we just have to keep things the way they are even if not all are happy with it.

It's good that you're trying to find a way to resolve it, Alatar.

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