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ToE Junior - An End Run round the problem?

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 16 Sep , 2005 12:03 am
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Eru,

I am really sorry if I thought you were speaking when someone else was! Because I was giving the example specifically for you ... that's why the answer didn't make sense ... ah well - but I have a confession to make which is that my screen won't hold the writer's name and the post at the same time and I often just glance at the edge of the sig pic to see who I'm talking to and I've gotten in wrong on more than one ocassion. I shouldn't do that, really. I should scroll back and forth ... it's just tedious to do that.

I'll go back and see who it was that made those comments. Just btw, I did not mean there's something wrong with people who don't have a Ph.D. in philosophy, I meant there's something wrong with my posts if one needs a Ph.D. in philosophy to understand them!

Voronwe: Is it fair to make an exception for those two, but not the others?

I answered this in the other thread, too. :) I think a fair argument can be made that posters who were already members when Article 6 was ratified deserve to be 'grandfathered.'

CC: In case you were wondering, I'm 17 - hence the apathetic passion.

We are all acting out of self-interest, CC. Thanks for owning up to yours. :)

Idylle: The bad side of that is that she is now working in Boston.

But we have an enclave now of members and relatives in Boston! TP and Holby are there, plus my daughter and the sister of my daughter's BF and one of my former students. All bright folks (but you knew that already). Probably you wife knows people in Boston but if she doesn't ...

Jn

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 16 Sep , 2005 5:34 am
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Eru,

Sorry, I don't mean to beat a dead horse but we seem to be talking past one another and I have the impression that you took offense at my posts.

I went back to see who I had mistaken for you, but it was your posts that confused me. My original remarks were addressed to CC though, and not to you as I had thought.

I had posted the following earlier:
I would like to be able to send my children here, my friends, and even my students if I know them well enough to know their avocations ...But if the ToE admits those 16 and over ... I would have to warn my children to stay away ... where the teachers are concerned ... if they were registered at a website where sexual discussion took place with children of the same age as those they teach ... they would be unemployed in about 5 seconds.

Which you seemed to be answering when you said this:
There is one problem I have with Jn's argument. When the whole wilko thing was going on, didn't you Jn argue that we aren't accountable to non-members or future members (something like that)? That our responsibility was only to the members here? If so, then your daughters or whoever you may want to show this site to have absolutely no bearing on this situation whatsoever. I'm sorry but it did irk me to read that we have to consider the rights or needs of people who haven't registered here yet. If we start down that path, it will never end.

I really did not understand how you made the leap from my 'wanting my children to be able to post here' as an example of the problems teachers will confront to 'considering the rights of non-members.'

I also said, in that same post:
This is not a matter of legality, it is a matter of perception ... It is not that I will be instantly fired if the ToE lets in 16 year olds ... but it would become an active consideration for me, remembering to never, ever log on at work, if our front page disclaimer said 'sex forum - 16 and over welcome.'

After which you said:
And why exactly does Jn have to leave right now since minors are not being included in ToE?!?!?! Alatar has compiled his list and is getting ready to redo all the permissions.

I just can't make a connection between these two posts. Could I ask you, as a courtesy, seriously, to explain to me what I said that made you believe I was (a) leaving right now; and (b)claiming that my children's right to post was a deciding factor ?


Jn

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 16 Sep , 2005 6:32 am
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Jnyusa wrote:
I really did not understand how you made the leap from my 'wanting my children to be able to post here' as an example of the problems teachers will confront to 'considering the rights of non-members.'
I didn't realize you were using your children as an example of the problem teachers will have to confront. I took it in a simple manner: you want your children to post here but they wouldn't be able to if minors were in ToE. That's why I said what I did; that they personally don't have any bearing on the situation since as of right now they don't have any rights regarding this board. My reply was specific but your post was a general idea, hence the confusion I suppose.

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Could I ask you, as a courtesy, seriously, to explain to me what I said that made you believe I was (a) leaving right now;
I didn't believe you were leaving immediately. Prim had been saying repeatedly how you were going to have to leave, I snapped and got angry since I was tired of having that said to me over and over.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 16 Sep , 2005 7:07 am
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Thanks, Eru. I do understand. And I'm sorry if my later comment seemed like an insult. I really did not mean it so but was just feeling myself to be a terribly poor communicator.

Jn

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Fixer
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Posted: Fri 16 Sep , 2005 12:08 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
Thanks, Eru. I do understand. And I'm sorry if my later comment seemed like an insult. I really did not mean it so but was just feeling myself to be a terribly poor communicator.
*grabs Jnyusa into a headlock and gives her a noogie*

Awwwwwwww don't be too hard on yourself. We all eat our foots as often as we can reach them. I think that might be one thing that unites all b77ers. :D

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Pippin4242
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Posted: Fri 16 Sep , 2005 1:38 pm
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Edit: It didn't matter really. :(

Last edited by Pippin4242 on Fri 16 Sep , 2005 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Fri 16 Sep , 2005 1:56 pm
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The boss may not have any choice, Pips. Probably doesn't. There is probably a company policy that he has to enforce or lose his own job. It's the same thing—he might never get caught out. But losing and changing jobs is far different for an adult with a family and a mortgage and children in the local schools than it is for a young person with no particular need to stay in one place. It is also very different in a career position where you have invested years to get where you are.

There is just a lot more at stake for a professional adult. Finding a new job at your present level, if it's possible at all (and for people past fifty it can be very difficult), will almost certainly involve moving hundreds or even thousands of miles and completely disrupting your life.

Even a very small chance that this might happen far outweighs the pleasure of posting with friends on a particular message board. It's unfair for anyone to insist that someone else run such a risk for their own convenience.

I am sorry if I have been repetitive on this point, but so far I don't seem to have gotten it across.

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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Fri 16 Sep , 2005 1:57 pm
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Pips,

With all due respect, you will view the situation very differently when you have a career-related job and you have at least yourself to provide for, 100% - possibly a significant other and minor dependents as well. You will view the situation differently if the job market in your field is bad and you currently have a (seemingly) secure job. You will view the situation differently when you would have to explain to your new putative career-related employers why you are leaving your previous job - and obtain a positive reference from your previous employer as a condition of receiving your new job.

Your statements regarding this job situation seem to be made from the vantagepoint of:
(1) Someone who is not supporting herself.
(2) Someone who imagines that it will be quick work to secure a new job in her field of training if she leaves her old one.
(3) Someone who does not see significant transaction costs associated with leaving one job and moving to another.
(4) Someone who has not recently been in the interview market in her ultimate field of choice, and someone who has at least a few years to go - thus leaving ample room to make sweeping statements about what she would do in what is in reality an extremely difficult hypothetical situation.
(5) Someone who is not in a field, and does not plan to be in a field, where an employer can legitimately look into your personal life (Idylle, for example, has provided examples of an employer which must do extensive background and personal checks - even into the private, consenting activities of adults) - and who has not thought of, or does not care about, the ramifications of any given situation for this group of adults.

Here, I agree with you insofar as it's not a question of chronological age. I know many people who are older than you, mostly college students, who make the same sweeping statements as you have just done. It's a question of experience in or understanding of the job market that you will have to deal with - and believe me, it doesn't take an exactly extensive amount of experience seeking permanent jobs to reach very different conclusions about these sweeping matters of principle than you can previously reach when you're not in the job market. (For me, it was the one year process it took to get a permanent post-grad school job offer - probably before going through that long, draining interview and work experience, I would have made a lot of the same statements as you.)

I'm telling you flat-out, though, that posts like your last are exactly what's going to convince working adults that there is a huge divide between your experience and theirs and that you are simply unable to appreciate their concerns. Whether or not that is 100% a consequence of your age will be irrelevant, as that is always the attribute that's blamed for perceived immaturity. In my experience, at least.


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