This post >> ancient history pre November 2004
2nd post >> November / December 2004
3rd post >> January 2005 onward
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06 October 2004
- After talking to Shadowjack over IM and being informed about a brewing situation whereby it was now down to a vote between the Admin's to ban him (at this point it was an intense argument over something that happened in his Birthday thread - now deleted [maybe LoR knows more and is willing to share 'confidentially'?]) without him having done what he later did) I wrote the following email and sent it to a few friends:
The reasoning behind this at that point in time for me was that so far SJ had provided a balance/check against IE (in a similar way that BD had done) and I really feared she would become 'all-powerful' now to the detriment of the boards since Crispy does not have the same presence as her and mostly follows her lead (from what I've seen and heard). All this is/was totally from my point of view and it's no secret that I've been good friends with Shadowjack for quite a while.
Quote: Hi
please excuse the unsolicited email but something is happening on TORC I feel needs addressing before it's too late. We're about to potentially loose a very old and highly respected MOD, Shadowjack, and although us 'normal' people can do relatively little about this situation there is something we can do:
Ask Jonathan (jonathan@tolkienonline.com, copy to admins@tolkienonline.com) to temporarily suspend our PM account until further notice in 'silent' protest. No particular reason for doing so needs to be given. With your PM you support TORC and you have the right to withdraw that at any time. Perhaps if enough people do so a shift in attitude can take place. I think we've all experienced in the past
that petitions and discussions do not really work.
In order not to inflame the situation any further please do not post any potentially damming material on TORC. It will only hurt you and the person I for one whole-heartedly support. Of course, any course of action or lack thereof is entirely your choice.
Thank you
Alandriel
>>> copy of my email sent to Jon >>>
Dear Jon
I kindly ask you to suspend until further notice my premier memberships for the ID's Alandriel and Eoden, effective immediately.
Thank you
Alandriel aka Monika
I think I need to make a very clear statement:
Although (for me - Alandriel) this whole situation initially started through Shadowjack it was never only about him. It had to do with the chain of command, no higher authority when Admin's moderate, the way posters were treated in dispute situation etc. etc. At no point ever did I support SJ's actions that then led to his ban. Shadowjack (for me again) was just a 'trigger' for he in the past was able to somewhat 'balance' things behind the scenes.
At no time have I called for anyone's head. Quite the contrary. On IM I have said over and over again that getting rid of IE was not my goal, but that I would like to see her as an admin, not as a modding admin, surrounded by a team of efficient Mods.
- - The email spread, people cancelled their PM's and took their sigs down; some putting 'one for all – all for one in their sigs' until (see next day log)
07 October 2004
- Jonathan posted notice about the banning of SJ / Posted: 07 Oct 2004 03:44
- When I (Alandriel) saw this I talked to SJ again on IM and was furious to learn what he had done, namely un-banning every poster ever banned so far. I've never 'yelled' at anybody over IM like I've yelled at him. I was livid. Of course the damage was done and could not be reversed.
- At some point that day, Rodia put up her info page
- Email-Letter to Jon sent: 07 October 2004 16:37 for transcript of all emails pls see entry for 10 December Those emails have been re-posted on TORC in the In regards to IE's resignation thread
- That night, Gimli got in touch via IM offering to act as intermediary
08 October 2004
- 07:26 email received from Jon –
- I.E. posts in aunties thread Posted: (Posted: 08 Oct 2004 12:20): I have wanted nothing so much as to call and leave tearful messages on your voice mail (I did leave two hang ups on it).. Syl, all will come right in the end. Jon, Ted Crispy and I, the mods and indeed all the members of TORC were betrayed by someone who we trusted. To me, this someone was more than a co-worker; he was one of my best friends in real life, on TORC or anywhere. I have a thoroughly broken heart. There's an announcement by Jonathan in the One Ring forum that makes this message less cryptic.
Quote: Thanks for your email. Just wanted to let you know you'll get our full response either Friday or Saturday. I appreciate the tone of the letter...
- Posted: 08 Oct 2004 19:51 Jon's announcement thread in TOR: Jon's announcement thread in TOR I.E.: "Nothing is forever, but any such reinstatement would have to come from Jon and Ted themselves".
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Thread posted by NienorNiniel in B&B Attack of the Default Alliances Posted: 08 Oct 2004 20:56
>>Okay - what's going on here? I intended to leave this topic alone, but my curiosity is too strong. A lot of well established posters, many of whom has always been faithful to their alliances, are suddenly all 'default'. No sig-pics, no normal alliances, and I keep going, "Who was that? Oh, of course..." all the time. Explanation? Please...>>
- Rodia posted: Posted: 08 Oct 2004 21:42 We don't want to discuss this on the boards just yet, not until we have permission from Jonathan. Email me at matthecatATgmail.com with your address and I'll explain.
- Me (Alandriel): Posted: 08 Oct 2004 21:44: or, alternatively, you can email me alandriel_e-torc 'at' yahoo dot co dot uk . Thanks
- Axordil opens A new proposal to lessen tension
09October 04
- 'Attack of default alliances thread' is deleted
- Jon sends email to Rodia asking her to wait with posting 'anything' before starting a campaign thread
Rodia replies to Jonathan clarifying that that her response was in line and she had only asked the thread-owner to take it to email with her and not discuss on the boards. "If people want to know what's going on they have to email me to find out. I'd rather tell them what's up not to cause confusion and more rumours than are flying already."
- I.E. posted in aunties V : Posted: 09 Oct 2004 06:06 >> I think that message boards are like ponds. They need to 'turn over' in the spring and the fall. We had this a small lake in my hometown. It's REAL name was "Labonte" but I don't know anybody who didn't call it 'Stink Lake' because twice yearly, during that period, it smelled terrible. It's the same way with the boards, I've noticed (and I've paid close attention for four years). Every spring and fall something like this comes up. All the crap you thought you had buried or that was dead and gone has to come back to the surface and some of it really stinks. In a week or two, though, that lake always went back to its peaceful, normal smelling self and everything was alright again. I know TORC's waters will smooth themselves out soon enough.
- Thread Posted: 09 Oct 2004 22:33: NienorNiniel What happened to my thread?
10October 04
- Reply from Jon with timestamp 10 October 2004 01:20 (uk time all times)
- I.E. posted in what happened thread
- 10 October 2004 21:29 reply sent to Jon
>>Thank you for your letter. We wish to give our response the due consideration it deserves. We expect to be able to reply more substantively by next weekend.>>
- 10 October 2004 23:12 Ro emails Crispy about "subwhofer"
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I (Alandriel) was absent for the next 5 days and did not manage to keep a log during this time.
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19 October 2004
- email letter sent to Jonathan
22 October 2004
- I.E. posted Posted: 22 Oct 2004 17:37 Did you know this about TORC and me
"1) I'm a girl, not a boy. 2) I'm an admin, not a mod. Please try to keep it straight"
24 October 2004
- Email reply from the admins. 24 October 2004 08:55
25 October 2004
- Sig pic Pandora about "unsinkeable" amended upon exchange of emails with me (Alandriel) and I also took my sig line out.
- Jon puts thread about re sig's and TOS violations
- I.E.'s changed her title to now read: Candycorn Consigliera (before "Unsinkeable Consigliera"). Offer of Jon to chatt to some of us (via Chris aka Gimli)
- Ted making clear he won't discuss our stuff during the Tuesday chatt of his (but that decision is later reversed – too late for the Europeans to react)
26 October 2004
- live chatt with Ted, transcript posted first by Alassante Estel and then Full transcript Poll chatt on Tuesday
27 October 2004
- these boards are created as a new platform for discussion >>This board is in no way meant as a replacement of TORC nor to slight other people that have been thinking of creating another message board. As I (Alandriel) said, the only intention behind this is to provide a platform where people can communicate freely without the load of emails.>>
B77 has no Mods, only Admins that help run the site and those will be on a rotation basis. All members can volunteer.
- Alandriel calls for help for other B77 members to volunteer as Admins. Gimli & Dindraug volunteer and are made Admins on 28Oct. It is decided to have an admin rotation system for B77. 'Term of office' lasting approx. 3-4months. (next rotation votes take place in Feb05) – Admin rotation thread
- to see 'original memberlist' go here (sort by join date)
- Alassante Estel' talks to IE (IM) in her words:
- Rodia' talks to Jonathan (IM) and as a result of this conversation, 'bringing in hard evidence' is being discussed on B77 and whether or not Jonathan is out for a witch hunt
Quote: I just had a huge conversation with IE. I will not copy and paste it here, as I told her I wouldn't. I did, however, tell her I would be telling all of you the gist of the convo, and she said she would be doing the same with Crispy, Ted and Jon.
I will make this clear from the onset - I did not presume to speak for everyone in our convo. I made it very clear that I was speaking only for myself.
Ok, here's the deal. The admins really and truly though, despite our efforts at being diplomatic, that this was mostly witch hunt after IE and not much else. It was a huge concern, and, in my mind, had a huge impact on the way they handled the whole thing.
The conversation actually started with IE telling me that I had the choice of backing out of the petition when it started because I had to know it was a witch hunt. I made it very clear that I did not believe that was what it was, and because I believed in the importance of what was said, I wouldn't back out. I also had to do quite a bit of damage control from the chat last night.
A very big reason that they thought this, in all honesty, was because of some of the people who signed on. From their point of view, I don't know who these people are except for Steve. I hope you all don't mind how I responded to this, but I felt it was the only way to reassure both her and Crispy, as well as Jon and Ted. I told her that even if there were people who signed on as a witch hunt rather than an honest attempt at making a change for the better, their views on that were not represented. When asked how I knew that, I told her that I was the one who came up with the original draft of the second email, and I would not have included those views in it.
She really wanted to have the chance to talk to everyone, so yes, our act in going only to Jon really hurt us. They believed it was because we were complaining specifically about her and trying to go over her head, rather than get to the heart of the matter without insulting anyone. IE agreed that she was working more of a mod job than she should, and that was because they're understaffed.
I told her that my main issue with the whole mod/admin thing was that #1 The admins are doing the mod jobs and #2 I can't tell the difference between a mod and an admin except that admins can approve sig pics and sig titles. IE suggested that they post a job description for mods, admins, etc. I do believe - and I said this specifically only representing myself - that I think that is a wonderful idea. For me, its a lot easier to accept the decision of an admin *AS* an admin if I actually knew what they did that gave them that higher authority.
So, the basic gist of the email and the end conclusions (subject to IE speaking with Jon, Ted and Crispy and me speaking with all of you) are this:
#1. There will be a publicly posted job description of mods and admins
#2. There is going to be a big effort to hire more mods
#3. Once those mods are hired, IE and Crispy will be fading to the background when it comes to modding except for when called in by a mod or if the situation is serious and needs immediate handling
My personal conclusions on these is:
#1. A clearing up of not only who is in charge, but *why*
#2. A more comfortable relationship with those making initial modding decisions, as it will be possible to take these decisions to a higher authority if there is a misunderstanding
#3. The comfort for the posters of knowing that the first decision won't be the final decision unless they've done something unquestionably wrong.
Now, I don't know if any of these things are helpful or give comfort to any of you. To me, it looks like a basic compromise. No, not everything we want, but it's a start and thats very important.
- Whether or not to send Jonathan a final reply via email is discussed >> Thank you for listening to us and taking the time to reply. We do not feel that the issues we raised have been addressed in a satisfactory manner, or that any of the problems have been solved, but since we agreed to the terms of discussion you set we won't pursue this correspondence any further>> The notion is rejected as unnecessary and to avoid potentially to 'shut down' talks
28 October 2004
- Lidless writes to Blackwood/Wilko asking to name the 'problem posters'
- the possibility of inviting TORC admins in here is discussed but later rejected (3Nov) due to members concerns
- examples of 'debate' threads re posters interfering with the workings of TORC
Can this forum be saved? / On Breastfeeding rights and good manners (cultural differences over what is inappropriate) / This has been discussed many times before – do a search
- public 'denouncing' of posters on TORC discussed here
I have found perfection; Moving countries
- other samples of TORC Mods under pressure/criticism of posters
And so we enter a new Age of TORC; So – what do you think about the new boards; A new proposal to lesson tensions old thread 2002
29 October 2004
- Discussion on: Would it be helpful to invite TORC Admin in here?
- Discussion over 'double standards' on TORC
- Alassante_Estel 'run-in' with IE over IM
Quote: I had pointed out something to her through YM last night that I had seen on the boards (a nipple clearly visible in a sig). Since I don't care if nakedness is visible in a work of art, I refuse to make formal complaints about these things, however, I will say something in private about it, if I feel it might concern those who run the boards. IE's response was simply that the shape of the breasts in the pic were "clearly visible" and that there was a "dark spot" where a nipple would be, but that she didn't believe it was a nipple. Fair enough. Then she went on to say that I could use it as "evidence of her corruption," etc etc etc
Either way, she now believes that I am after her
30 October 2004
- email exchange between Berhael/IE, >>Basically I apologised for having hurt her, making it clear that it was a personal note, but trying to assure her that we're after treating the motives, not punishing the person. The email she sent back was surprisingly nice (a bit sad) and positive.>>
- Leoba's request to be added to IE's IM is denied. An email exchange follows where IE explains that she won't approve new non-mod people on her IM because she gets 'swamped' when logging on and also because Crispy, Jon and Ted have asked repeatedly not to have conversations regarding TORC matters in IM for it's far too easy to misinterpret and/or misremember what's decided in such a temporary form of communication.
Mixed signals as to not wanting to continue the discussion a day or so after IE talked with Estel.
Leoba writes back, acknowledging IE's wishes and confirming she wanted to talk about TORC issues but only because being keen of finding ways to open up communication.
31 October 2004
- email from IE to Leoba
Any new points/suggestion about the site would be welcome but already discussed issues either through the petition or email or from the resulting conversations with various participants they're not willing to discuss further.TORCs lines of communication are always open but they won't discuss endlessly once they've been adequately addressed.
[edited to fix broken links ~ Alandriel]