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The Bikeracks make no sense

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Anthriel
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 7:31 pm
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tp, I really appreciate you taking your time to clarify your thoughts. I know your time is limited, and I am impressed that you take whatever "free" time you may actually have to try to clear up misunderstandings or miscommunications. You rock. :)

That being said, I must admit that I disagree with you. :D
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One point I've got to make about this boards system that I like is that, if I feel really really strongly about something and want a change, I can initiate a process that may change it. I can do that. I don't have to uselessly PM an admin or mod over and over until they either ban me or try to do what I want. I am not merely a member. Yes, it may be a hassle sometimes, and it may be annoying sometimes. The fact is, I can make a difference here, and no one has the right to tell me "You don't have the authority to say/do that."
See? I knew if I waited long enough, someone would come along and say what I was thinking for me. Thanks, Stellie. :)

My feeling in all of this is pretty simple.

1. No system, bar none, is going to be equally pleasing to all involved.

'Tis obvious enough, I suppose, but it bears repeating. :)

2. When many opinions are involved, things get complicated.

While each of us may easily have covered what we considered the salient points in one page or less, many of us "having a say" makes the end result... more than one page. ;)

I was on the constitutional committee, for a brief time there at the end, and I was floored, daily, by what other people considered to be important. And yet, in a democracy, their viewpoints held equal weight with mine, and this simple fact dictates that their viewpoints be investigated and documented. Astonishingly, what I believe to be right isn't always right for the group. 'Tis a fact I am puzzled with to this very day. :)

3. This messageboard matters a whole lot to a whole lot of people.

You yourself said that you were thinking about b77 whilst at the gym; jny mentioned she was considering territorial behavior and how it affects groups of people, and how it pertains to messageboards in particular, over her nightly cup of cocoa (for the record: I, personally, would be thinking... mmmmm... chocolate.... ;) ); and I am often astonished about how many times a day my thoughts turn to people here at b77 and the words they share.

So this statement:
Quote:
I simply do not believe the stakes are high enough on a messageboard for due process to be necessary.
... does not ring true for me. I would have easily agreed with you before the TORCquake; but I was astonished to learn on a daily basis how high the stakes on a messageboard really are. I was really, actually, real-time grieving for what I saw happen to my friends-- friends I had met on an internet messageboard. Are they real people, are they feeling real pain? Yes, and yes. It sucked in a really big way, and I was completely impotent to affect that pain. I was really surprised by that level of emotion, actually. It did matter, and it does matter.

My reaction was: never, ever again. Not if I have any say. Which, at TORC, I didn't.

Which brings me to:

4. I want a chance to make a difference.

b77's main lure (besides the fact that most of my friends were here, the rebels that they are) was this one fact. Here, the processes may be slow and creaky, but the rules CAN CHANGE. They can. If I, or anyone else here, has a strong issue with something, I am not left with the choices of a. publicly rebelling and risking be banned, as so many were, or b. silently writhing in anger and frustration. HERE, I have a shot, however cumbersome the mechanics of the process may be, to affect things. I think that's pretty groovy.
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I am half-cringing to write this, because I'm sure this is a heretical view for this board
.

You, my friend, can write whatever you want to, here at b77. As long as you are not trolling or harassing someone, your honest opinion is not only tolerated, it is welcomed by many. If we had a dictator, however benevolent, and your words offended that ONE PERSON, you could eventually, OR very quickly, be out on your can... without any sort of fairness filter being engaged at all. It certainly has happened elsewhere.

Here, you would have hordes of posters, whether they agreed with any word you had ever written or not, who would point to that cumbersome charter and say... I don't think so. Not here. Not now.




I do want to say that venting frustration about something is perfectly acceptable... happens all the time. It's pretty human, really. But in this case, it puzzles me.

I think it may be the way I was raised; I was 3 years younger than a sibling with a severely debilitating and terminal disease. My parents got to watch him die degree by appalling degree for 21 long years. With all that very real trauma and drama a daily fact in our family, I think my little brother and I would basically have had to be dragging our livers behind us to get a whole lot of sympathy from the family. :) So maybe the "keep a stiff upper lip" is just unusually deeply etched into my psyche... along with “don’t sweat the small stuffâ€


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 7:49 pm
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:love:


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Farawen
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 7:54 pm
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What, now you people have pet piranhas too? A cat just wasn't chic enough? Was that it? :suspicious:
Primula_Baggins wrote:
<goes on missing Farawen>
Aw, stoppit. You're making me all... weepy 'n stuff. Can't do the inner poise thing when I'm weepy. I am not that strong, dammit. I FAIL at inner poise.


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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 8:00 pm
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Impenitent wrote:
It is unfair, IMO, to publicly state that we frown upon attempts to solve such a dispute privately, by email or PM, by making statements that underhand tactics, harrassment, threats, personal attacks etc may (and by implication, will) be used in such communications. This is quite demoralising to a person who prefers to avoid public performance but feels that attempts to solve an issue privately could be misconstrued as being malign.

I know no one has overtly said this, but there is a subtle theme running through this thread that can easily be read that way. Besides, the Charter allows for private solutions off-board (something which has not been highlighted here).
Imp, I've seen no such statements and do not believe that it could easily be read this way. I know because I brought up the argument that nasty things could happen via email or PM. I most definately did not imply that they would be used. You are wrong in that assumption. Some people may feel inclined to be harsh to another privately, others may not. It all depends on the person.

Never ever have I frowned upon anyone working out their differences privately. They have every right to do so if that is what works best for them. No one here will ever force them to resolve disputes publicly. The only thing that will be forced is for them to remove their disruptions from any threads. After that it is up to them how to resolve their differences.

People are arguing the strong points of the bikeracks in this thread because this thread was started as a criticism of the bikeracks. That is the only reason why people are discussing those strong points. I don't agree with coming to the conclusion that because those people are supporting the bikeracks they frown upon private resolution of problems.

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Frelga
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 8:38 pm
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Just stopping in briefly to :love: for Anthy's last post.

And :love: for VtF, too.
TP wrote:
I tend to assume that if someone is on an Internet message board, which in my experience is never a friendly venue (unless explicitly defined as safe space, and even then debatable), they should have a thick skin and be able to take strongly-expressed disagreement.
TP, I'm sorry I missed your post and only saw this statement when quoted by someone else. So forgive me if it is out of context.

On the surface it is a reasonable assumption. My experience has been, however, that messageboards (except perhaps professional ones) are often populated by vulnerable, introverted people who tend to have thin skins and little coping skills. Just sayin'

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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 8:59 pm
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:yes:

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Anthriel
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 10:53 pm
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:yes:, too.


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Impenitent
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 11:27 pm
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So much agreement.

I feel like a fucking idiot.

Thanks

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 11:32 pm
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Imp, I think they're agreeing with the assertion that people on the internet are more likely to be thin-skinned than thick skinned, not disagreeing with your point that some people find private conflict resolution more successful.

It sounded to me like pretty much everyone agreed with your point that public exposure does not work for everyone. I also agree with that.

Jn

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Frelga
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 11:32 pm
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Err... Impy? Forgive me if I seem a bit vain, but I thought Eru and Anthy's I Agree smilies referred to my post, not Eru's reply to yours? And if my post has done anything to upset you, it did it without my permission, I promise.

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Anthriel
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 11:40 pm
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Impy, I'm sorry. I had no idea my smiley could be interpreted to mean what you thought it meant.

I was just agreeing with Frelga's comment about people being thinner- rather than thicker-skinned on internet sites (and I assumed that's what Eru meant, as well). Not that I have had enormous experience with messageboards, but that has been my observation.

I actually was going to type something like I :love: Impy's post (so many points I agreed with!) but I was on my lunch break and ran out of time.

Next time I will take the time...

:hug:


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 11:41 pm
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I agree with Jn. :D

I think people simply agree with your point, Imp. I remember it coming up during the charter discussion. I even remember (if my brain is still functioning) that there was some agreement that two posters settling matters privately would be the best way.

What we had to deal with was the result when people were unwilling or unable or preferred not to do it that way. Hence the BikeRacks stickies. They provide an alternative to off-the-board discussion for those who prefer it, but I think they were mostly meant as an alternative to disruptive disputes on the boards.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 20 Oct , 2005 12:06 am
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As a founding member of the thin-skinned society, let me just say.

I :love: Impy. :hug:


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Impenitent
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Posted: Thu 20 Oct , 2005 2:10 am
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Please excuse my idiocy. Today is not a good day and I should not take out my inadequacies on innocent bystanders.

Please forgive (especially Anthy; you did nothing at all).

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 20 Oct , 2005 2:12 am
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Don't worry about it, Imp. I hope things clear up for you quickly. :hug:


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 20 Oct , 2005 2:13 am
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Imp, I'm sorry you're having a bad day. :hug:

But there was nothing resembling idiocy.

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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 20 Oct , 2005 2:24 am
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Impenitent wrote:
Please excuse my idiocy. Today is not a good day and I should not take out my inadequacies on innocent bystanders.

Please forgive (especially Anthy; you did nothing at all).
Ah, hon. Be gentle with yourself. It was simply a misunderstanding; I am very glad you brought it up rather than have something so easily cleared up go on to fester and rankle.

:hug: to my dear Imp...


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Impenitent
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Posted: Thu 20 Oct , 2005 2:44 am
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Cerin wrote:
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It becomes a bit of a performance piece and unless the rules are clear "don't butt in" then there is no doubt a temptation to become involved in that performance.
I think this thread has helped clarify that the rules are a clear 'don't butt in', and if you feel you really have something positive to contribute, exercise the courtesy of PMing the participants first to make sure it is ok with them.
I don't feel confident about that at all!

About two months ago I started a thread in business about precisely this issue in consequence of a bike racks thread in which I reluctantly participated. A couple of people who were not aware of the "don't butt in" guideline posted what they considered helpful comments and when I pointed out, privately and as gently as I could, that the guidelines suggest one should not participate without the explicit permission of the main protagonists, things got tense.

The thread in business discussing it went through the same rigmarole with a consensus reached that yes, indeed, people should not butt in unless invited or after seeking permission, and that it should all be clear now.

Well...how clear is it? It has recurred.

Now, I want to state clearly that it doesn't really bother me that much as I have no intention of ever taking anything to the bike racks but...I think we're being overly hopeful here if we believe that, in consequence of this thread, all are now clear about the issue and will remember the guidelines and will abide by them.

Two, three months down the track, there'll be another slip and some more angst and another thread. It's inevitable. No biggie, but it's bound to happen.

ETA: missed the two posts above while typing! I feel so silly, I really do. Thank you for the compassion shown.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 20 Oct , 2005 2:47 am
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Perhaps the guidelines need to be rewritten a bit.

Or. . . . perhaps all that's needed is an announcement post in the BikeRacks headed "Thinking of Posting in a Thread Here? Read Me First!" with a clarification (and emphasis) of the rules.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Thu 20 Oct , 2005 2:50 am
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I second that suggestion!

(I suggested that the first time around, but after the hoo-ha died down nothing happened)

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