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The Bikeracks make no sense

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halplm
Post subject: The Bikeracks make no sense
Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 8:55 pm
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If the purpose is somewhere to work out problems without outside interferance, this can be done off the boards entirely.

If the purpose is to hash out differences providing a record for everyone to see, other posts should not be allowed at all, and I woudl go so far as to say it should be done in a private forum, and then posted later once things are resolved.

If the purpose is something else, that is an area to work out problems that don't seem to be workable where they originate or off the boards, then not only does it not make sense to limit the participants, but outside participation should be both desired and encouraged. Most unresolved conflicts only exist because both sides refuse to see the others point of view, and to resolve that conflict, other input is necessary.

It makes no sense as is, it's just like a public email area where everyone can see your fight.

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:01 pm
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The immediate participants are allowed to invite in people and comments they think would help. If you have something you think would help, PM the participants and ask permission to post it.

I hope you read my responses to your complaints. They've now been deleted in order to clean things up.

The bike racks make perfect sense. Outside interference often exacerbates the problem. I think we have a prime example of that in one of the current bikeracks threads right now. Having the dispute be public holds participants accountable and restrains them. No outright flames unless they want to look like a real ass.

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fisssh
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:03 pm
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I've always thought the name "Bike Racks" makes no sense. I assume there's an expression - possibly English? - about people fighting near bicycle racks after school? .... I've been dying to ask!

:confused:

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:09 pm
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I think so....kind of like meet me at the flagpole at 3PM. :P

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Wilma
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:14 pm
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I think Eru is right that sometimes outside influence can sometimes exacerbate a situation. I feel that Bikeracks operates on a trust that B77 members are mature enough to work it out between themselves, if you know what I mean.

I think though in the begining it's gets kind of difficult since people are uh... firing on all 4 cylinders. Once they get that out and calm down I feel that people are more likely then not to work things out. :)

I always thought 'the bikeracks' meaning was similar to Eru's interpretation.

That fact alone that the parties are willing to participate gives me hope that good things will be accomplished. :)

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:14 pm
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Erunáme wrote:
The immediate participants are allowed to invite in people and comments they think would help. If you have something you think would help, PM the participants and ask permission to post it.
No one, in their right mind, would agree to let someone they know is going to disagree with them in such a thread. If it's just those that disagree and related people, what's the point of having it public? If you want to resolve something without input, you shouldn't mind resolving it in private.
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I hope you read my responses to your complaints. They've now been deleted in order to clean things up.
Yes, hence the creation of this thread. I hope I'm not breaking any rules here? Are only people who have been on a comittee allowed to open threads here or something?
Quote:
The bike racks make perfect sense. Outside interference often exacerbates the problem. I think we have a prime example of that in one of the current bikeracks threads right now. Having the dispute be public holds participants accountable and restrains them. No outright flames unless they want to look like a real ass.
Outside interference will only exacerbate the problem if the problem is bigger than the two posters. If the problem really is with just the two posters, A. No one else will have anything to say, and B. Those two posters won't be interested in anyone elses opinions, so why air their problems out publicly?

If the problem is really something bigger, or if many people have a similar problem with one or both of the posters, then outside input is necessary, or the real problem can never be resolved.

Either way, the forum as it is does not solve any problems.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:19 pm
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The discussion surrounding the Bike Racks occured months ago.
The whole process played out on the Boards.
The ins and outs of the Bike Racks can be found in the Convention, The Jury Room, and of course The Bike Racks. This debate was settled a long time ago, it was proposed and ratified.

Unless you or anyone else would like to bring up an amendment to change things, the Bike Racks are what they are, and they will be run according to the rules of this board.

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:21 pm
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Yes, the almighty rules are what's most important... not common sense, not posters, none of that. It's been ratified, by golly, we can't object to it!

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Wilma
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:22 pm
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EDIT: I will say here I missed the last 2 posts. I did not mean to ignore them.

Well I'd beg to differ Hal. I think the point is to have a spot where people can talk one on one. That way they can get to the root of the 'issue' and possibly see that here may have been a misinterpretation or misunderstanding, where all the rest of their uh... negative feelings were founded upon.

I have read through the 2 threads currently going and I think with more discussion that things can be worked out.

Once I had an argument with a friend, and we got down to the nitty gritty and discussed our issues. We both realized we had uh.. kind of different expaectations of each other, and I was expecting too much without putting in any effort. After that discussion we learned we both had to make an effort and now we are working on it. I think that discussion may have helped save the friendship. :)

I think hashing it publicly is similar to what Eru has said it helps keep the participants civil and may help give them an outsiders perspective. Once things get going in the one on one discussion and people are more calm and rational, maybe then (with permission) others can come in and give helpful suggestions.

Last edited by Wilma on Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:23 pm
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Makes sense to me. What wouldn't make sense is letting other people participate and possibly prevent the orignal disputers from working it out themselves.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:25 pm
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I apologize for my part in this confusion. I should not have posted the post that I made in Estel and Hobby's thread. I felt that I had something to say that was useful (thank you for agreeing that it was useful, Eru :hug:), but irregardless of whether it was or not, I did not have the right to do so, and I had a responsibility to refrain from doing so.

I can only apologize and promise to try not to do it again.


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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:25 pm
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halplm wrote:
Yes, the almighty rules are what's most important... not common sense, not posters, none of that. It's been ratified, by golly, we can't object to it!
Ratified by the posters, for the posters.
It is called democracy.

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:28 pm
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if it's only supposed to be one on one, you can't sell me on the "public to keep things civil"

That's inviting comment itself. You're saying "We would keep this private, but we can't trust each other to be nice in private, so we're going to ask everyone to watch, but don't say anything, just keep us in line."

That just doesn't make sense. It's asking for silent commentary. Then, if something gets out of line, what are people supposed to do? Not comment, no, get a ranger. So why not just have a private forum where rangers and invited participants can see and resolve conflicts. Why make it public?

If it's private, it should be private. If it's public, input should not be limited. I'm not saying everyone shouldn't mind their own business, but if the conflict is really wider than the two originators, then its resolution really must be wider. Or else, it will just happen again with two different people.

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:30 pm
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Holbytla wrote:
halplm wrote:
Yes, the almighty rules are what's most important... not common sense, not posters, none of that. It's been ratified, by golly, we can't object to it!
Ratified by the posters, for the posters.
It is called democracy.
And the moment it's more important than the posters (as I would argue it is for almost everyone involved in creating it), then it's lost any and all meaning.

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:31 pm
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halplm wrote:
I hope I'm not breaking any rules here? Are only people who have been on a comittee allowed to open threads here or something?
:roll:

You want to know what I think this is really about: you're upset because you got called on getting involved where you shouldn't have done so. Instead of realizing, hey, true, I shouldn't have gotten into something that doesn't have anything to do with me, you're complaining that the bike racks doesn't make sense.

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:32 pm
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The rules aren't more important than the posters. They're helping the posters! Truehobbit doesn't want anybody and everybody posting and the rules are supporting and helping her. They are doing their job!

edit: I think this is going to be my last post about this subject.

Last edited by Eruname on Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:33 pm
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Some people would be more likely to tell someone off in private accomplishing nothing! But if they have to do it in front of people they are more likely to be rational or else risk looking like a fool (as Eru previously said). But to invite just anyone into the fight wouldn't make sense, because then it would turn into an Team A's friends vs Team B's friends and who is that gonna help?!

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Soon you will see
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You're only sleeping


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halplm
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:35 pm
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you're welcome to think whatever you want, Eru. The fact is, I had something to say, it was relevant, it was trying to be helpful, and now its deleted.

You know what pisses me off more than anything on a messageboard?

Someone deleting a non-offensive post.


So yeah, I'm a little pissed off, and then I took a step back, and though, well, how can the bikeracks function like this, and I recognized what I see as a much bigger problem.

I'm all for conflict resolution, but I'm not seeing the benefit of publicly viewed but privately waged arguments.

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:39 pm
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TheMary wrote:
Some people would be more likely to tell someone off in private accomplishing nothing! But if they have to do it in front of people they are more likely to be rational or else risk looking like a fool (as Eru previously said). But to invite just anyone into the fight wouldn't make sense, because then it would turn into an Team A's friends vs Team B's friends and who is that gonna help?!
And what I'm saying is, if Team A's friends and Team B's Friends are that concerned about the ISSUE at hand, then it's a bigger problem than just those two people, and them resolving THEIR issue will not fix the underlying problem.

I'm not saying it should be a free-for-all, I'm just saying the limitations don't make sense. If someone truly is being a pain in the ass and exacerbating a problem, then by all means, get rid of them, but kickign people out because someone doesn't like what they had to say is creating a whole new problem, regardless of any exacerbation the original comment would have had.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 14 Oct , 2005 9:42 pm
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Well lets tell the whole truth please. Your posts were deleted after you had edited them out. All that was deleted was a series of periods.

I fully support that you have a dislike with the Bike Racks system and I encourage you to take advantage of the system and see if you can't effect some change. Take up the torch and fight for what you believe in. The system is in place, so make use of it. You have the right.

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