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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 5:34 pm
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Hi Rangers!

I think the Lidless/tp thread in Bike Racks is an inappropriate use of that forum.

Bike Racks is intended for serious dispute resolution. If people go there to fool around and stage mock dispute resolutions, I think that may discourage others from going there to resolve situations that they want taken seriously.


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Estel
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 5:43 pm
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Lidless looked it up in the charter Cerin, and couldn't find anything against it. The Rangers can't technically do anything about it without violating the charter themselves.


If you PMed him, however...


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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 5:54 pm
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Lidless looked it up in the charter Cerin, and couldn't find anything against it.
That's simply absurd (and yes, I mean absurd, and no, I don't mean it in an inflammatory or offensive way). Of course Lidless couldn't find anything 'against' it, because the Charter doesn't list all of the things the Bike Racks shouldn't be used for, it states what the Bike Racks should be used for.

Quote:
¶1: The Bike Racks Forum
The Bike Racks Forum is a read and write forum available to all members. It is used for:
• resolving disputes between individual members when these disputes do not involve a violation of board rules;
• off-topic discussions that are derailing a thread but do not warrant a thread of their own;
• restricting posters who have provided invalid email addresses.

Members may start a thread in that forum to resolve a personal dispute.

Rangers at their discretion may split quarrelsome or disruptive posts and move them to the Bike Racks if they threaten to impinge on member rights.
'Members may start a thread in that forum to resolve a personal dispute'. That is not what tp and Lidless have done, and therefore they are using the forum in an inappropriate manner.

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The Rangers can't technically do anything about it without violating the charter themselves.
What a childish thing to say (or so it seems to me). If I were a Ranger, I'd explain to tp and Lidless that the Bike Racks is intended for serious dispute resolution and ask them to please take their fun thread to an appropriate forum. Then I'd lock the thread in Bike Racks, and I don't believe I would have violated the charter in the least.


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Estel
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 7:12 pm
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The first thread ever made in the Bikeracks was a joke thread, and there was no negative response to that, so why should there be assumed to be one this time? Sometimes humor can break through tension better than anything else. Maybe that thread should also be locked or moved, so that it doesn't disrupt the Bikeracks process.

And before you continue putting him down for this, let me just say that he is in the process of discussing what to do with the thread (move it/lock it/etc) with a ranger and has been since yesterday.

Please excuse him for not taking care of it fast enough for your comfort, but we do have other priorities (preparing for a hurricane) at the moment. I much prefer him to pick my parents up from the airport, and help me get the shutters up on the many windows than sit online and figure out what to do with a thread. I also prefer that the Rangers continue having the couresty to talk to him about it and have patience with the fact that we have other priorities at the moment.


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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 7:18 pm
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The joke thread from March, as I have noted in the Bike Racks thread, predated the ratification of Article 5 defining the purpose of the BR by three months. It really should have been relocated when the Article was ratified, and I would like to request that we do so now, so as to avoid further confusion as to the serious nature of the forum.

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tinwe
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 7:23 pm
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Thank you Estel. I was unaware that Liddy was talking to another Ranger about this already, so I sent him a PM about it myself. Please ask him to disregard my PM if the issue has already been settled.

Please, take the time that you need to prepare for the storm. I have asked that discussion about this in the Bike Racks thread cease until the Rangers have heard back from him. I don’t see that there is any big rush here. You have other more important things to deal with right now.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 7:25 pm
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I second Ax's request about that March thread. Its presence there really is misleading.

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tinwe
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 7:26 pm
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Ax,

I suppose you are right. Well, actually, I’m quite certain you are right.

Where do you think it should go?

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Estel
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 7:27 pm
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I would like to request that you wait a couple hours till Steve is done picking up my parents and putting up hurricane shutters so that he can actually get online, read the recent PM from Tinwe, and make a decision about whether or not he wants his own thread locked or moved.

Or is a couple hours too much?


[sarcastic rant]

Wait a minute, what if he isn't able to get back online today, and he has to pick up his kids from the airport tomorrow, driving through evacation traffic from the Florida Keys, so he might not be able to get on then :Q And if the power goes out because of the hurricane, he might not be able to get online for one to three days after that! :Q
That thread would be sitting there.....
Not posted in by the originating members......
unlocked......
For days!
That would be the end of the forum for sure!!!!!!!!!!!


[/sarcastic rant]

Sorry for the sarcasm, but this doesn't need to be freaked out over the way it is.



Please, as I asked before, have some patience. It won't kill you, or the forum, if you do.


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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 7:27 pm
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Threads of Historical Interest? :D

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 7:29 pm
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Quote:
The first thread ever made in the Bikeracks was a joke thread, and there was no negative response to that, so why should there be assumed to be one this time?
I'm not assuming a negative reaction this time, I'm having a negative reaction, which is what I've expressed.

As to why there was no negative response to the first thread ever made in the Bike Racks, I don't know. Perhaps because the forum had not yet begun to be officially used for its intended purpose.

Quote:
And before you continue putting him down for this, let me just say that he is in the process of discussing what to do with the thread (move it/lock it/etc) with a ranger and has been since yesterday.

Estel, you commented in your Bike Racks thread with TH that you hated the way people equated you and Lidless. I think this is why they do.

I'm not putting Lidless down for this. I don't think he intended any harm. I'm simply voicing my opinion as a member, that I don't think this is an appropriate use of the forum. I had no idea this was being discussed behind the scenes. Perhaps this is a good example of why it is better if things that concern the board as a whole are discussed publicly rather than privately?

Quote:
Please excuse him for not taking care of it fast enough for your comfort
As I said, Estel, I had no idea this was being discussed by anyone else when I made my first inquiry in the Bike Racks thread a short while ago. As far as I knew, I was the first and only person to comment on it, so your remark about 'fast enough for your comfort' is misapplied to me.

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I much prefer him to pick my parents up from the airport, and help me get the shutters up on the many windows than sit online and figure out what to do with a thread.
Naturally.

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I also prefer that the Rangers continue having the couresty to talk to him about it and have patience with the fact that we have other priorities at the moment.
Of course.


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 7:29 pm
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Estel, the thread we're talking about is not Steve's.

It's this one, a silly thread Alatar started that was the first thread in the forum and that many people goofed in.

We are not discussing moving Steve's thread.

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tinwe
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 7:34 pm
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Stella,

Take all the time you need. I will not do anything without consulting with Lidless first. You have more important things to worry about now.

And btw, I hope that you are all safe.

Ax and Prim,

Ok. I’ll do that now.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 7:34 pm
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Prim is correct.

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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 7:55 pm
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OK, I'm here now. Sorry that this couldn't be as quick as some might have liked - I have a lot of real-life stuff going right now too.

I'm going to give my take on this for once here, and then let it rest. Some of you have already heard some or all of this via PM or IM, and I'm sorry if you've had to read it twice.

First off, let me say that this is exactly the sort of issue that I do not believe is worth any of our time. It was started in good humor - if others feel it should not go on, then I'm willing to defer to that even if I disagree about their reasons. I also have a bona fide fear that too much discussion over this will lead to some form of committee or amendment, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be responsible for starting another thread that has that effect. The Rangers have my permission to move, lock, or delete this thread at their option, and I defer to Lidless as thread-originator as to which of those three things should happen.

For people who didn't understand the chess references:
I was joking around in the Member's Lounge when I asked Lidless to "meet me at the Racks". When I was at his house during the Florida m77t, the two of us sat down for a game of chess. Much to my chagrin, though I originally had the better of him, he checkmated me (even though he was somewhere between buzzed and drunk :oops:). I vowed to beat him the next time I took him on - my post in TML was just a joke about that in response to the friendly three-way banter in that thread between TM, Lidless, and me.

When I saw that Lidless went with it and actually started a thread in the BikeRacks, I was surprised but highly amused. I considered for about two minutes whether to post, because I felt that someone would be bothered by it. I actually thought it would be for a different reason than has been voiced - that people might see it as distracting or detracting from the Libertarian/Non-Libertarian mediation. After two minutes of not-that-careful consideration, I decided to post, figuring that it was obvious that we were just looking for a laugh, and hoping that others might draw a chuckle or two as well. Although it would be a problem if everyone decided to start a joke thread in the BikeRacks, I thought it could be one of those "once is funny" things.

It became apparent last night that there were some concerns, when a Ranger contacted Lidless to ask that we voluntarily have the thread locked or deleted. I think Lidless was honestly more sympathetic to the idea than I was. Although I hadn't expected the thread started and had no great emotional investment in it, it brought some of my low-level frustration with things to a head - I voiced to Lidless and the Ranger my feeling that we've moved from censorship by mod (at TORC) to self-censorship out of concern that someone will be offended or take things too seriously/the wrong way. The two of us agreed to keep going, but to reevaluate if anyone publicly expressed concerns.

This has now happened. The thread was supposed to be fun. It cannot be fun if we are fighting over - of all things - whether the Charter permits it. I've just gotten through five hours of real-life fighting over what state law says with an attorney in a dispute that has real-life consequences. As I've said elsewhere, I come to this board to get away from that - i.e. I refuse to spend my time here on arguing about what a would-be legal document (for purposes of this board) permits or doesn't permit. By the time we're done with that discussion, it'll be three months from now and all humor will have long evaporated. If people feel that our thread is violating the objectives of a forum, then I understand their concerns and would rather yield to them than engage in a time-consuming, unfun fight.


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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 8:10 pm
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Cerin wrote:
What a childish thing to say (or so it seems to me).
I am in awe of Estel. If this would have been said to me, I probably would have blown up. Estel states a fact and is told that she said something childish. Quite rude, in my humble opinion.

Do we not all remember how that adjective was thrown around at that other message board? Do we not remember how aggravating it was? Do we not remember the arguments over this adjective being used?




tp and Lidless, for it's worth, I thought it was funny and welcomed the laugh after all that's been happening recently. Well done! :cheers:

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 8:12 pm
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tolkienpurist wrote:
I voiced to Lidless and the Ranger my feeling that we've moved from censorship by mod (at TORC) to self-censorship out of concern that someone will be offended or take things too seriously/the wrong way.
Thanks for explaining, tp. I just wanted to comment on the above. I don't see this situation as concerning the issue of self-censorship. The Charter clearly states what that forum is for, and that's why I objected to it being used for something else.

In other words, I think the pertinent question would have been, 'does this belong here?' (which would not be a matter of self-censorship), rather than a concern that people would take something the wrong way or too seriously (which would be self-censorship).


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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 8:20 pm
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Erunáme wrote:
Estel states a fact and is told that she said something childish.
Estel did not state a fact. "There's nothing a Ranger can do about it ... " did strike me as a childish thing to say. There are things that can be done and as we have been told, are being done.

Quote:
Do we not all remember how that adjective was thrown around at that other message board? Do we not remember how aggravating it was? Do we not remember the arguments over this adjective being used?
I do not, as I was not involved in the conflicts there.

Are you suggesting that the word 'childish' be avoided here because it is a source of painful memories to some?


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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 8:23 pm
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Quote:
Do we not all remember how that adjective was thrown around at that other message board? Do we not remember how aggravating it was? Do we not remember the arguments over this adjective being used?
I do, yes. Doesn't mean the word is hors d'combat, just that it should be used judiciously. Otherwise we create our own set of dirty words, which was IMO a more serious problem at TORC.

Doesn't mean I would have used it, but I'm not Cerin. She can speak for herself.

And I think it was funny too...well, sort of. Even for me, there's a place and a time, you know? It did feel a bit as if a bit of mockery was there, of the process and of the participants, mockery that would have been better placed where it wasn't in juxtaposition with Voronwe's unhappy post.

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Anthriel
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Posted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 8:31 pm
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:hug: to Estel and Liddy


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