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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 2:07 am
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Hal, if you care so much about this board and how it works, why won't you take fifteen minutes to learn about it?

Honest question, not rant.

Straight from the charter (bolding is mine):
Quote:
¶2: Rights and responsibilities that rest on the determination of all members to keep Board77 a pleasant place for all to post but are not enforceable by procedures and penalties outlined in the Charter

You have the right:

To be treated with courtesy and respect by all posters regardless of their status, and the responsibility to treat others likewise.

To express your thoughts on any topic, as long as you post with respect, forbearance, and consideration for the context, the feelings of others, the value of contrasting viewpoints, and without making personal attacks against other posters.

To use adult language that is generally acceptable in written media or adult conversation, along with the responsibility to refrain from unnecessary cursing or obscenities. We encourage everyone to use language that is clear and contributory (not spam or netspeak) without our having to restrict the expressions that are generally found in adult conversation.

To address a personal dispute with another member in the Bike Racks forum if the other member agrees. You are also entitled to mediation. It is your responsibility to resolve your own personal disputes in a productive fashion, and not to interfere with other members who are doing the same.

To serve as a Ranger, Mediator, or Juror and to run for elected office. It is also your responsibility to participate in the governance of the board whether simply by voting when a quorum is needed, or by serving in some official capacity.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 2:12 am
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Why didn't I contact Lidless privately when I first saw the bike racks thread he started? Its a fair question that has not been answered, so I'll try to do so, much as I would prefer to stay out of all of this.

Quite simply, I did not contact Lidless directly because based on past experience, I did not believe that he would respect my concerns, and I did not want to have more conflict with him. Ironically, the last todo that I had with him was when I told him that I thought that certain concerns that he was expressing about about a particular poster would have been better done privately, and he insisted that doing it publicly was the correct course of action. So I am a little bit confused about the emphasis on how people should have contacted him privately.

When I contacted a Ranger, I specifically asked that the Ranger not report to Lidless that I had complained, believing that he (Lidless) would just think that I was being over-sensitive. Perhaps I was wrong, but his brief comment to me in this thread when I finally fessed up that I had contacted a Ranger and explained why I was upset about the thread makes me suspect that I was NOT wrong:
Lidless wrote:
No need to get super-sensitive like some other posters here. It's not contagious.
Given Lidless' own reaction to all this, perhaps it is contagious. :(

Last edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Tue 25 Oct , 2005 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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halplm
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 2:16 am
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Yeah that reads just like I would think it should, particularly the "are not enforceable by procedures and penalties outlined in the Charter " bit, which is how I would expect it to be.

However, that's not how it was perceived in this instance is it? It was brought up and discussed in the Ranger thread in the business room, which means someone wants action to be taken.

It's this complaint, and any others like it, trying to put the weight of the charter, teh business room, the rangers, or whatever rules behind their own idea of what should happen, that I object to.

It's not someone else's right or responsability to see that anyone else follows those rights and responsabilities. It is our own. And if we choose to let ignore that responsability for a day or two, then people should respect that.

Now, if your point is, I should have known the charter and pointed all that out to begin with, I disagree. That would be myself using the charter to try and elevate my own opinion on the subject, which I've already said I don't like people doing.

I am glad to see the charter agrees with ME, though.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 2:27 am
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halplm wrote:
Yeah that reads just like I would think it should, particularly the "are not enforceable by procedures and penalties outlined in the Charter " bit, which is how I would expect it to be.

However, that's not how it was perceived in this instance is it? It was brought up and discussed in the Ranger thread in the business room, which means someone wants action to be taken.
It means someone thought it was inappropriate and wanted to know what could be done about it.
halplm wrote:
It's not someone else's right or responsability to see that anyone else follows those rights and responsabilities. It is our own. And if we choose to let ignore that responsability for a day or two, then people should respect that.
(Colors are my addition.) Hal—don't you see the problem here? Who is "we" and who are the "people" you mention? Why should "we" have more rights than the "people"? Assuming these are all board members, don't the people who choose not to ignore a responsibility have the right to make that choice and say so?



Edit: To clarify.

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Cerin
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 3:15 am
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halplm wrote:
So it is still going, "over their head."
I don't see it that way. I think that is a TORC mentality.

To me the difference is between a community concern and a personal concern. To me the Bike Racks issue was a community concern and so I felt that the appropriate way to deal with that was through community, not personal channels.


Impenitent

I'm so glad you posted that, because that was the one thing that sifted through to me this morning after sleeping on things, was this issue of PM v board discourse.

It finally sunk in to me that Holby was faulting me for not handling my concerns via PM, something that never would have occurred to me. It's not that I never handle things via PM. For example, I remember expressing my distress over a sig one time, though assuring the person I wasn't requesting they change it, just that I wanted them to know how it had struck me. And of course I exchange personal reassurances and thanks and the like. I guess it's as I said above, when something strikes me as a community rather than a personal concern, but that is very vague.

I remember, I hope she won't mind me saying, when Hobby expressed her dismay about some joking that had occurred, and I hadn't realized she felt it was at her expense. She did this publicly, and I was so glad she did because then I knew that everyone else was also aware of how she had been hurt, and everyone was aware that I hadn't intended it after I responded. I felt this was better than if she had PM'd me and said something and we had worked it out privately. But of course, it is at the discretion of the person who wants to say something, depending on what they are comfortable with.

Which brings me to the fact that I would not have been comfortable PMing Lidless even if I had thought that the appropriate channel, because I feel he dislikes me, and is mean to the people he dislikes, and his way of thinking and communicating is so vastly different from mine that our hopes of understanding one another are practically nil. I felt safer saying something on the board, because the board is a buffer between us. We are interacting, but we are not interacting directly, so a person's energy doesn't impact you in the same way. Additionally, there is so much potential to be misunderstood when writing, that I think it is better when discussing a board concern to have the input of many people to collectively sift and clarify.
Quote:
if you think I’ve done the wrong thing in a thread on a personal basis
Yes, I guess it's defining 'on a personal basis'. I did not feel it was in any way personal between Lidless and I, this Bike Racks thing, but that it was purely a board matter. Maybe it's because it struck me as such a clear violation of the Bike Racks as defined in the Charter. Whereas if someone did something that I didn't feel was wrong vis a vis the community in any way but which nevertheless caused me hurt personally, then I would address it by PM. Or if I realize I've given offense though without actually doing anything wrong vis a vis the board (like inadvertently failing to respond to someone in a thread), then I would PM.

I find that I strongly reject these notions that Estel expressed on Lidless' behalf, that posting on the board is a sign of disrespect ('going over my head') or that it preempted his participation. I know I meant no disrespect to Lidless personally by following what I thought were the obviously proper channels to address this. Now maybe if I were a close personal friend of Lidless I would have PM'd him and told him how I felt about the thread, but I don't know.

And then I think, what difference would it have made? (I know we can claim things now in retrospect that would have been done, but really, I wonder.) I would have said the exact same thing in a PM that I said in my post. I really can't imagine Lidless would have said, 'Oh, well in that case, we'll have the thread moved.' I imagine he would have tried to persuade me to lighten up and have fun, just as he did on the board. I don't like to think what might have followed after that.
Quote:
if you feel personally offended or insulted or there’s a possibility that something has been misinterpreted, then I would far prefer to be contacted privately with a question for clarification or personal complaint. I can then fix it, or apologise or clarify without having to involve the whole community.
Yes, I feel that in these kinds of situations that would be entirely appropriate. We aren't after all dealing with something that is perceived to have been done contrary to our board guidelines.

Quote:
This is how I would conduct myself in RL; I would not approach someone in the middle of a gathering and loudly declare “you have offended me/distressed me/hurt my feelingsâ€


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Anthriel
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 3:28 am
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Cerin, I just want to sidetrack for just a moment to say I am so impressed with how logical and organized your responses always are. If that last post was a mish-mash, than I am a monkey's uncle.

And I MIGHT give you a hug, but TED might call me a hug fiend, and then I'd have to chastise the boy.

So, just to spare him, I'll stockpile my hugs for later.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 3:40 am
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Imp, that was a wonderful post.

Hal, I hoped to get somewhere with this conversation, figure out what exactly it is that you wanted, but your thinking is so damned convoluted that I really ... you see, I too wish to be entertained and have an enjoyable time when I come here and it's really hard work to make sense out of your posts beyond the sense that you are mad at someone all the time.

You are right, there shouldn't be anyone higher than any other. However, the rangers are the ones with power to enforce whatever rules that exist. They do have power to act on another person's posts. If you PM a ranger, that is making a request that something be changed, to someone who has the power to make that change. Even if they then go to the "offender" and ask them if they can make a change, this is coming from a position of someone who COULD make the change anyway.

As for starting a discussion of the concerns, that also is not going over someones head, but when it is done IN the contact the rangers thread or EVEN just in the business room. That is where decisions effecting the board are made. That is where you would go to get consensus to take ACTION against the "offender."

So it is still going, "over their head."


For someone who wants as few rules as possible and all of us just sort of voluntarily some of the time when it suits us abiding by guidelines, the above three paragraphs are just about the most hair-splitting, dictatorial contortion of logic that I've ever seen written on these boards.

By all means, every poster should be required to think through something like that before opening their mouths and deciding where to say what. That's my idea of freedom.

The thing is, we should have the freedom that accompanies an unmoderated board, because the respect and intelligence of our posters means we won't abuse that freedom.

And yet you are abusing that freedom relentlessly, and crying "victim" when we stop trying to appease you. Do you not think, for example, that this statement,

"As for the mission statement, I've always thought it was laughable,"

might be felt as contemptuous and belittling and demeaning by the twenty-one people who made a good-faith effort to build something for this board? Something which you endlessly criticize without bothering to read. How is that respectful, Hal? Please explain to me how your words exhibit respect for the rest of us?

The transparent, open, and democratic thing to do would be to start a thread discussion about what might be in appropriate fore the bikeracks, and inviting everyone involved to join in.

But you did that, Hal, and we all honored you with the discussion. There simply was not a consensus in favor of your point of view. What, it doesn't count if you lose? The discussion didn't take place at all if people were not swayed to your point of view? We just don't exist except when we're agreeing with you?

What the hell kind of freedom is that for anyone but you?

I can't make heads or tails out of the paragraph that Prim responded to ... you, them, the people, us, him, her .... someone else will have to sort that out.

Sorry, but I'm more than a bit fed up after spending the day trying to make sense out of this conflict.

Hal, in my opinion your opinions are not helping us. They are (unintentially, I'm sure) dismissive of everyone's feelings but your own. I wish that you would think about this, and instead of concentrating all your brain power on your next comeback, consider what it is you really believe in and what would constitute a meaningful dialogue with someone else.

Jn

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halplm
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 3:41 am
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Prim, "we" is each individual, and "people" is any individual. They're not groupings, just pronouns.

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Frelga
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 3:51 am
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Please forgive me for butting in here, but may I please respectfully suggest that the part of discussion that concerns Lidless would be easier once he gets his electicity back and is able to respond?

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 4:04 am
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As the ranger who acted on Lidless's thread, I did not exercise any unnecessary rights as a ranger. I did not delete the thread because of my own personal conflict, but I moved it despite Lidless's request for it to be deleted.

I saw the comments about how people can go to the rangers if they are annoyed, and I wanted to make it clear that in this case no ranger did anything beyond what I am supposed to do.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 4:04 am
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Cerin I don't have the time or energy to invest in this anymore.
I would just like to say that I am not trying to fault you for anything. I know you are not me. I know why you feel the way you do.
I was trying to do nothing more than avoid what I saw coming a mile away, and here it is. Before I could even do a half assed job of trying to squash this before it started, it was too late. I knew this would be a regulation oldtime B77 brouhaha.
Some may enjoy this type of thing but I am willing to bet most would rather avoid it.
I was and am pissed that I didn't get the chance to rectify this before we came to another debate.
You happened to be the one that posted in the thread.
You happened to be the one that posted in the ranger thread.
I am not out to fault you or anyone else. I am just pissed and that is pretty much that.

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halplm
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 5:06 am
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What I think it obvious, is that some of you are so bent on arguing with me, you're not even trying to comprehend what I'm saying. You've clearly stated you think I'm some kind of attention seeking troublemaker, and am only out to drag this out as long as possible.

obviously, It's a waste of time for me to try and explain anything any more, because you're only looking to figure out how screwed up I am. I have never had to ignore as many petty, snide, and underhanded insults as I have in these threads the last couple of days.

I don't give a damn about this board any more. I only showed up for the people, and that's no fun any more, because some people just make me sick now, every time I see them around, so it's no fun hanging out with friends even.

Of course, feel free to label this as a grandstanding, attention-seeking melodramatic see ya post, wouldn't want to take that enjoyment away from you...

Or was that too damn convoluted?

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 5:52 am
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What I think it obvious, is that some of you are so bent on arguing with me, you're not even trying to comprehend what I'm saying.

Hal, I have tried very hard to understand what you are saying, in spite of your constant degrading remarks.

You've clearly stated you think I'm some kind of attention seeking troublemaker, and am only out to drag this out as long as possible.

OK, this is really the last time I am going to make an observation like this. You said that without moderation people who are disrespectful would leave the board. Jewel answered that in her experience attention-seekers flock to that kind of board. Your interpretation of this is that Jewel called you an attention seeker. She did no such thing. She disagreed with your statement and you interpreted that as a personal insult. Don't you see how Jewel would feel misrepresented by you? Do you really not see that that when people disagree with you, and you interpret it as their being against you somehow, that this is unfair to them? That it denies them the right to speak freely, to converse?

I have never had to ignore as many petty, snide, and underhanded insults as I have in these threads the last couple of days.

Nor have I, Hal. From you. "Underhanded insult" characterizes just about everything you've said about real people in these many threads, in contrast to the utopian posters you think we should be.

It's very hard to converse with someone who doesn't think of anyone else as quite real.

Jn

ETA: Listen, Hal. We have to stop this conversation. I feel like I am attacking you now and that was not my intention. I don't dislike you and I don't think you are a troublemaker, certainly not deliberately. I just feel that it's impossible to please you, and yet there is no end to your demand to be accomodated.

The Charter is not some poster standing out there with rights of his/her own. It's just a piece of paper. It has no life and no opinion independent of what the posters make of it. It really is true what others have said to you - if you see something you feel is wrong, then think what might be a better way, and propose it, and put it in a form that real people can relate to it, and attempt to get it passed.

That's really the only way it will happen around here. If you think that's laughable, well then laugh. But don't be astounded if people grow weary and petulant over endless complaints too vague for them to do anything about, especially if you couch it in that kind of derision.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 9:40 am
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Even I have to say, Hal, a lot of people are trying to discuss what concerns you, you're just annoyed that they don't agree with you. Disagreement doesn't mean they've foresaked what you say.

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Cerin
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 11:57 am
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Holby

Well, I think I finally get it. You were desperately trying to prevent a blow-up, and I lit the fuse by posting in the threads. I can understand why you would be royally pissed.

May I suggest that if there should ever heaven forbid be another case where you are handling a delicate negotiation behind the scenes and there is a chance I might stumble in like a herd of stampeding buffalo, feel free to PM and warn me off. I am perfectly capable of restraint when I know there is a reason for it, and I like to think I would have been happy to hold off on commenting in this case while you worked on things.

And may I say that I'm sure there was nothing half-assed about your efforts. You love and are loved and trusted by so many people here, it must be difficult to be in the position of hearing about all their board complaints and woes, as I know that is so not what you are about.

I am truly, truly sorry to have added to your griefs in this way.


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TheMary
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 1:12 pm
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So how's it coming along people? Are you all any closer to understanding one another? Do you even know what you are arguing about? Does it have anything to do with a thread being started in the Bikeracks and whether or not that is violation of the charter?

Just curious. :) Oh and do we need the "f" bomb dropped am I over do for an explosion ;)

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Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
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Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
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Cerin
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 1:27 pm
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If you want to know what's going on, you're going to have to slog through the mire like everyone else. :P


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TheMary
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 1:30 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Aw shucks! :D

Okay, so it looks as if we are in fact off topic. I really don't mean to rush you guys since I'm sure y'all could go on for 20 or 30 more pages and not accomplish a darn thing, but I think it is clear that we are not going to agree on certain issues.

So, may I suggest we come to some sort of resolution please? I mean Steve hasn't been in this thread in days because he's without power due to the hurricane. At this point I think he got the better end of the deal!

Since we cannot delete the thread due to charter regulations (pesky rules getting in the way ;) ) I'd like to know what needs to be done so that we can put this arguement to rest. Cerin? Anybody? Please. :)

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Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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Cerin
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 8:23 pm
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The tp/Lidless thread has been moved to Turf. The issue is at rest as far as I'm concerned.


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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Tue 25 Oct , 2005 8:30 pm
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We're done? *draws deep breath*

I wonder how long it will be before I can look at a chess board without thinking of this incident.


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