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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:39 pm
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Hal, I'm sorry. I wish I could understand and help. I wish you enjoyed this place like I do, and still thought the people are special- I think they are, you included.

But I guess it really is an impasse. I can't change the way you feel, and if you feel people here aren't special, that's that.

Still- you know (or ought to) that even if we disagree and/or don't understand you, everyone still appreciates you. That this place has much more to offer than this thread. I wouldn't leave if I were you. I left TORC because I felt there was corruption I could not subscribe to- but here, what you and I make of the place is what it will be. So I wouldn't leave.

I would stay and enjoy the parts that do please me.

But perhaps it is heavier for you and in that case I can't do any more than just say I'll miss you, more so because I don't understand why you left.

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Anthriel
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:51 pm
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hal is not going anywhere!!!

:rage:

If I have to keep baking cookies daily to tempt him to stay, I will.

hal, you are an important part of this board, and even if you don't think we are special, we think you are. :hug:

I'm sorry so few people agreed with your view on this one... Lord knows I've been dangling out there before myself, the only one defending a certain thought. I kinda know how that feels. The difference is, I gave up on trying to make my point a long time before you gave up on trying to make yours, therefore, I got a lot less oppositional input than you have received.

You are more tenacious than even I am... a fact that would astonish my parents, who used to refer to me as "Miss Hard Head" when I was little. ;)


We don't all have to agree on any one issue to be friends here. One thing I have learned from my whole messageboard experience is that sometimes people will want to chat with me, even though on paper we are profoundly different. I had a couple of words with one poster, early on, and I'll betcha he doesn't even remember that now. He still talks to me. Even though we disagreed.

I just celebrate that, I really do. It still floors me, actually. I know it sounds a little Pollyanna-ish, but in my experience, as it turns out, people are just basically kind. AND forgiving. Go figure.

That is so cool.

So I don't know what I'm saying here, other than don't take this one disagreement (and I know you feel that it goes to the core of how the board is built, so it is a BIG thing, to you) as a reason to not participate.

As you have often said, the "board" is not more important than the posters.

And many posters here think that you are groovy, and want to keep interacting with you if we can.


Chocolate CHIP cookie?

:sunny:


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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:56 pm
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Quote:
We don't all have to agree on any one issue to be friends here.
But we do all have to agree on that...;)

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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:59 pm
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Ugh, Anth, you're right....Hal, you're not going ANYWHERE. :rage:

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 7:11 pm
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Who said anything about leaving? I still said I keep coming back over and over.

I still think there are special people here, but I no longer thing the group as a whole is "special."



I'm going to make one last stab at trying to explain, because another thought occured to me. You guys think I'm trying to "control" how our "member mods" do their modding, and I object to that characterization.

I do think it is about a desire for control. I have no desire for control. A desire to control others isn't even in the realm of my thinking. Similarly, I do not want to be controlled.

What I DO desire, is to coexist peacefully with other members of the board. The charter, the rangers, the bikeracks, the member-modding, all exist to help us coexist peacefully.

The biggest threat I see to this coexistance, is when people try to exert their own power over others... also known as trying to "control" them. I'm not saying it's that explicit, but it's worse when it's subtle.

Getting people to "settle down" when tempers flare up in a thread is aiming towards a goal of coexistance. Getting someone to take down a sig pic you find inappropriate is "exerting" your power over them. Yes, they can be polite and take it down, and that's fine, we're back to coexistance. But if they don't want to, and other means are sought out to get them to take that sig pic down (be it official or unofficial, a ranger, or another poster), it's no longer about coexistance, but about getting YOUR way.

Now, personally, there are very few people I don't think I could coexist with, and none of them are here (now anyway). To me, the charter and everything about "the board" exists to faciliate such coexistance. But if people start to use it to "control" (yes, as I think Cerin did with the bikeracks thread, for ONE example), then I think that is wrong.

Could I, Cerin, tp, and Lidless have coexisted given the thread started in the bikeracks? Sure, there are several ways this could have happened. 1. Cerin asked them to move the thread, they said sure, and moved it. 2. Cerin asked them to move the thread, they said no, and Cerin dropped it. 3. Cerin could have left them alone, knowing it might cause problems later on, and then dealt with it IF it did cause problems.

Any of those promotes a continued peaceful coexistence. The moment, however, when they said they didn't want to move the thread, and Cerin (or anyone else) decided that some kind of intervention to get the thing moved was necessary, it became about control. It became not about "getting along" but about "controlling people to fit into some kind of B77 box." What that box is, who defined it, what it means, none of that matters. What matters is, people were trying to be fit into it. They were being controlled.

I don't know if that makes any more sense, or if anyone even bothered to read it, but it makes sense to me. You can kind of see how my complaints about the charter, the board vs. the posters, all of that fits in. Sometimes it's hard to recognize the very problem you object to, when all you see are the symptoms.

Cerin wasn't the only one who wanted the thread moved, so I would say the same about the others that wanted it moved, I just named Cerin as an example. I DON'T think it's only her.


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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 7:17 pm
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hal--

Would you object if someone started talking about the World Series, or the War in Iraq, in "There and Back Again?" Would you object if someone else objected?

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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 7:39 pm
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I read, but don't understand why Cerin persisting was wrong. She didn't do it, I think, to control anyone, or to piss anyone off. She did it because she thought the matter was important.

I agree with you 100% that trying to control others is not good. I just don't understand at all why you think Cerin's behaviour is an example of this.

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Anthriel
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 7:45 pm
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Axordil wrote:
Quote:
We don't all have to agree on any one issue to be friends here.
But we do all have to agree on that...;)
:kiss:
hal wrote:
Who said anything about leaving? I still said I keep coming back over and over.

Well... yes you did. But it did sound a little past-tense-ish, in context:
Quote:
But I still come back time and time again? Why? Because I thought this place was something special. That is, I thought the people who came here were special. It turns out I was wrong... they're just people, same as anywhere else. Work, school, church, TORN, TORC, B77 it's all the same
.


I'm glad I read that incorrectly, then.

:sunny:



Oh, and btw? What Ro said. :D


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vison
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 7:51 pm
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"Getting people to "settle down" when tempers flare up in a thread is aiming towards a goal of coexistance. Getting someone to take down a sig pic you find inappropriate is "exerting" your power over them. Yes, they can be polite and take it down, and that's fine, we're back to coexistance. But if they don't want to, and other means are sought out to get them to take that sig pic down (be it official or unofficial, a ranger, or another poster), it's no longer about coexistance, but about getting YOUR way. "

And your continued hammering at this isn't?

Has it become an issue of "control" for you?

I think nearly everyone who has posted in this thread SEES your point of view. You've had your shot at convincing me, (and most others, I think) and it hasn't worked out the way you want. You are only driving yourself bats.


Let it go.


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halplm
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 7:52 pm
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Ax, I would not object to that. I might suggest to that person that they would get a more meaningful discussion in a different forum and maybe they could ask to move the conversation there.

I WOULD object ot someone forcing them to move it. IF they think there's a reason to have that discussion there, let them. More than likely it will die quickly and fall down the page


Ro, Cerin obviously places a great deal of importance on the bikeracks forum working in a certain way. That's fine, but when Lidless and TP did something outside of that "certain way" Cerin tried to "control" the forum, that is "force" it bakc to that "certain way" instead of coexisting with TP and Lidless, let them have their joke, and then let things return naturally.


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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 7:54 pm
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Well to be fair to hal, he is still being told by people that they don't get it, so naturally he tries to explain again.

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 7:57 pm
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vison wrote:
"Getting people to "settle down" when tempers flare up in a thread is aiming towards a goal of coexistance. Getting someone to take down a sig pic you find inappropriate is "exerting" your power over them. Yes, they can be polite and take it down, and that's fine, we're back to coexistance. But if they don't want to, and other means are sought out to get them to take that sig pic down (be it official or unofficial, a ranger, or another poster), it's no longer about coexistance, but about getting YOUR way. "

And your continued hammering at this isn't?

Has it become an issue of "control" for you?

I think nearly everyone who has posted in this thread SEES your point of view. You've had your shot at convincing me, (and most others, I think) and it hasn't worked out the way you want. You are only driving yourself bats.


Let it go.
No, it's not about getting MY way. It's about getting people to see why this is happening, and hopefully coexisting in the future, without trying to control. Or recognizing why people might object to someone controlling them.

Or, if charter really is set up to control the members (which I don't think it is), it would be good to know that too, as I don't think that would be common knowledge.


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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 8:04 pm
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Ax, I would not object to that. I might suggest to that person that they would get a more meaningful discussion in a different forum and maybe they could ask to move the conversation there.

I WOULD object ot someone forcing them to move it. IF they think there's a reason to have that discussion there, let them. More than likely it will die quickly and fall down the page
OK...how about pornography? Would you object if I put up a picture of some hardcore, girl-on-girl-on-subwoofer with attachments action? Would you object if someone else objected to it and attempted to take action to deal with it?

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 8:14 pm
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Now, see, that crosses a line of peaceful coexistence. That's what the charter is set up for. That's where I agree the charter is useful. In fact, that's what I think its purpose actually is.

The charter DOES actually prohibit that kind of thing (I think, If it doesn't that would surprise me). While at the same time, it does not prohibit people from joking in the bikeracks room, or having real discussions in There and back again.


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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 8:28 pm
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halplm wrote:
A desire to control others isn't even in the realm of my thinking.
It seems like you've been trying to control what people are allowed to complain about. You even offered a suggestion about how often they should be allowed to complain.

Quote:
But if they don't want to, and other means are sought out to get them to take that sig pic down (be it official or unofficial, a ranger, or another poster), it's no longer about coexistance, but about getting YOUR way.
For me, it wasn't about getting MY way, it was about upholding the use of a forum according to the guidelines the community has decided upon as a group, guidelines I believe are there for the good of everyone.

Quote:
But if people start to use it to "control" (yes, as I think Cerin did with the bikeracks thread, for ONE example), then I think that is wrong.
Voicing my opinion that a forum should not be used in a way that I felt potentially threatened its intended usefulness to members of the community isn't attempting to 'control' anymore than you are attempting to control people by voicing your opinions.

Quote:
The moment, however, when they said they didn't want to move the thread, and Cerin (or anyone else) decided that some kind of intervention to get the thing moved was necessary, it became about control.
That isn't an accurate description of what happened. I voiced my opinion about the thread in what I considered to be the appropriate manner as soon as I saw it, because to me it was a clear violation of the board guidelines that I perceived could be harmful to the interests of the community. It wasn't a matter of expressing a personal preference for something, it was a matter of principle. I would not alter my stand on a matter of principle according to what other people thought about it. I don't believe you would, either (based on my impressions of you from your posting).

Quote:
Cerin obviously places a great deal of importance on the bikeracks forum working in a certain way.

Yes, I place a great deal of importance on the forum working in the way it was intended to work, which was arrived at with a great deal of consideration and voted on by the membership.

Quote:
That's fine, but when Lidless and TP did something outside of that "certain way"

Outside of the certain way our board guidelines specify for good and well-considered reasons

Quote:
Cerin tried to "control" the forum, that is "force" it bakc to that "certain way"

I objected to what I viewed as a potentially harmful misuse of the forum as stated in our board guidelines, which were created by the community to serve the community.

Quote:
instead of coexisting with TP and Lidless, let them have their joke, and then let things return naturally.
Instead of looking the other way when I saw something going on that I felt would potentially harm the usefulness of the forum for members who genuinely had a need to use it in the way it was intended.

Quote:
No, it's not about getting MY way.
Yes, it is about getting your way. You want the forum to be used the way YOU want it to be used (which is contrary to the way it was designed and so stated to be used as a benefit to the members of the community). It is exactly and entirely about getting your way.

Quote:
Or, if charter really is set up to control the members (which I don't think it is), it would be good to know that too, as I don't think that would be common knowledge.
The Charter is for the most part set up to define what kind of community we would like this to be. It does include a few stated penalties that are meant to control certain behaviors that we have identified as harmful to that goal.
Quote:
While at the same time, it does not prohibit people from joking in the bikeracks room
It states what the Bike Racks is to be used for. Staging mock dispute resolutions isn't on the list.

Last edited by Cerin on Fri 28 Oct , 2005 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 8:28 pm
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OK. Let's keep triangulating. While there is no rule against starting a thread in There and Back Again about the World Series, there is this about posting within threads there:
Quote:
B. You have the Responsibility:

To role-play within the guidelines set by the story originator, and in a way that does not prevent other characters from participating or stifle unnecessarily the creative options of other posters.
So introducing the World Series into an existing Role-playing THREAD would be disallowed, unless it were already a baseball roleplaying thread. :D

I assume that's OK by you. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 9:20 pm
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Well, Ax, I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

IF someone honestly wants to discuss teh world series, There and Back again is not the right place to do so. If they want to interject something into their role playing that alludes to the World Series (say, fisssh having all RP characters start wearing White Sox, capitals included), then you could argue that's not "appropriate" for the forum, but at the same time, it's not disruptive, and it's not meant to derail everything into a WS discussion.

Any disruption can get out of hand. We coudl have rampant World Series interruptions in There and Back again, and something would need to be done. Likewise, if there was a whole bunch of joke threads in the Bikeracks, something would need to be done.

But there aren't, and there weren't, and there won't be.

Cerin, it's not about "MY" way. I want you to have the Bikeracks forum you want. I want you to feel comfortable on the board. I want you to get all you could ever want out of the board. But not at the expense of controling others.

It is my belief, that we CAN all get what we want. Maybe not EXACTLY. Maybe not PERFECTLY, but we can get it. I just think we will all coexist MUCH more peacefully, if we don't try to control others, and fit them into some "B77 box."

You guys keep trying to flip it around saying I'M doing the very thing I'm saying shouldn't be done. If you really believe that, then there's no way you can ever understand what I'm saying. I'm not trying to tell people how to be, I'm saying no one should tell people how to be.

Let the charter do what its supposed to, the rest will take care of itself.


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Athrabeth
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 10:34 pm
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halplm wrote:
Getting someone to take down a sig pic you find inappropriate is "exerting" your power over them. Yes, they can be polite and take it down, and that's fine, we're back to coexistance. But if they don't want to, and other means are sought out to get them to take that sig pic down (be it official or unofficial, a ranger, or another poster), it's no longer about coexistance, but about getting YOUR way.
But hal, that seems to presume that the initial request was made with some kind of ill intent, or at least with a degree of "self-centeredness" that you seem to consider either snotty or capricious, or both. I can really only think of two reasons why one (at least one who would want to be a member of this board) would make such a request: that the picture is truly offensive to them, or that it may pose a serious risk for them in their workplace.

Now if someone requested that I remove a sig, I would really, really hope that these two possibilities would be the ones that I would consider first. Not that someone was trying to control me, not that someone was trying to exert power over me, but that someone had a REAL problem that I could help alleviate by taking down the picture. I might not exactly understand that problem or agree with that particular perception, but I certainly hope that I would be able to respect that member's feelings, especially if the request seemed to be founded on a reasonable premise, and was respectfully made (and once again, I'm having a hard time imagining that that would not be the case).

But if I didn't, if I said essentially, "Sorry, but it's within my rights to keep that sig and I haven't heard anyone else complain, therefore it's your problem, so live with it.", then that would be about getting MY way, wouldn't it?. That would put ME in a position of having power over another member of this board. That's not peaceful coexistence either, hal. And that's puts us exactly where you keep stating that we should not be.

I don't think there can be any easy formula that will consistently remedy divisions between deeply held convictions about what is "appropriate humour" or "appropriate freedom of expression" or "appropriate timing". Your scenario seems quite reasonable when viewed from the "perceived offender's" side, but not quite so fair when viewed from the side of the one offended. I'm afraid that we can only tread these murky waters through open dialogue such as this, which at least tends to take a "temperature check" of those beyond the two opposing parties, and usually plods, slowly but surely, toward some kind of better understanding and possible avenues of comprimise (which, hopefully, we all can learn from).
Quote:
But I still come back time and time again? Why? Because I thought this place was something special. That is, I thought the people who came here were special. It turns out I was wrong... they're just people, same as anywhere else. Work, school, church, TORN, TORC, B77 it's all the same.
You're right, hal. People ARE pretty much the same everywhere..........and that includes you, too. We all kind of want the world to turn in our direction, in our favour. We all kind of wish that our perceptions and logic could be easily understood and embraced by others. We all kind of believe that if others could "just see it my way", then everything would be okay, peaceful existence would be possible. We all have something of the omnipotent child lurking inside us, and I try to keep that extremely important realization in mind in all my dealings with "others", from family to friends to work to board77. Of course, the degree to which I succeed at this varies. ;)

And you know what? NO ONE can piss me off more than the people I love the most. My teen-age kids can push me to limits of hyperbolic vitriol and vein-popping frustration that no one on this board could ever match. My husband can, with a shrug of a shoulder and a roll of the eyes, make me consider the up-side of moving to the Buddhist retreat on the other side of our island. It's how I know that they are truly, truly special to me, that I care so fiercely about my relationship with them.......that they're worth all that passion, as Voronwe spoke of a few pages back. Maybe, as he suggested, the passions that can be aroused in this place, are rooted in the same deep undercurrents of caring............and that would make board77, and all those who make it what it is (faults and all) very special indeed. :)

*edited for a couple of heinous spelling errors* :oops:

Last edited by Athrabeth on Fri 28 Oct , 2005 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 10:50 pm
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Beth, I would say that you need to post words of wisdom like those more often...if they were not so wise that they really needed to be said only once.

:love:

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truehobbit
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 10:50 pm
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Cerin wrote:
My mind was definitely wandering there. :D

I was thinking that some of those who don't want the responsibility have also expressed a chafing against the rules (probably because they aren't as familiar with them because they didn't care to be involved in creating them, and som have said they find them ridiculous and unnecessary). It definitely wouldn't be a problem if those who didn't want the responsibility trusted those who do, but that doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.
Ah, ok, I see - thanks! :)
Yep, I agree about the potential problem.

Ax, good post earlier - er, two pages ago, I think. :)

Voronwe, so sorry to hear about your cat! :hug:
halplm wrote:
...they're just people, same as anywhere else. Work, school, church, TORN, TORC, B77 it's all the same.
Or maybe it's you who are the same wherever you go!
I don't mean this disrespectfully. I think we all carry our personality with us wherever we go, our values, our expectations, ourselves simply.

Yes, we're all just people. I don't know what better compliment you could pay anyone. :)

EDTA: Beautifully said, Ath! :)

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