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The Mooter Thread in Bike Racks

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:10 pm
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Prim, I do not repeat myself. I am constantly trying to find new ways to say what I mean to get the point accross. I do not take a stand and then respond with only "No, you're wrong and I'm right" over and over and over again.

I refuse to gather evidence, because that's the past, and I'm concerned with the future. Cerin seems only concerned with infuriating eveyrone who disagrees with her such that they look bad and she looks pristine.



Alright, here's a compromise. I don't feel this discussion is worth continuting outside of the bikeracks without a mediator. It's not the same as the thread TED started, it's Cerin (and possibly truehobbit, but she's been rather silent on the issue) and myself. There are others involved, particularly Lidless, but Cerin has refused to deal with him which I still think is counterproductive to conflict resolution, but here we are compromising.

I suggest the joke thread currently there be moved to m77t and g77k for the time being with the understanding (a promise from Jnyusa will be fine for me) that it will be moved back as soon as our conflict is resolved or ended in some way. Then, depending on the outcome of that resolution, appropriate action on that thread will be taken, whether it is left alone, moved, locked, or deleted.

Thus, the forum will be "pure" so Cerin can go there, Lidless will not be involved, at least in the actual thread, so he doesn't have to apologize just to get things going, and we can have an actual mediated discussion of this.

I cannot continue responding to the same statments, and it appears to me only a tactic to piss people off and make them look bad. Every time I think we've made progress, Cerin simply goes back to that tactic and nothing has changed. If this compromise is unacceptable, I suggest Cerin provide one that does not involve getting everything her way, and then we can move forward.

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Tinsel_the_Elf
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:13 pm
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I agree with Anthy (surprise! :D).

And to echo yov's helpful interventions yesterday--what is being argued? The Rangers have decided not to act on moving this particular thread. Cerin has accepted that (again, like Anthy I doubt she's happy about it, but she's accepted it).

Cerin has addressed a specific question to Lidless and hal, which they may choose to answer or not, being entirely up to them.

Cerin is probably not going to change her mind on her view about the BikeRacks, hal is probably not going to change his view about the BikeRacks, I am probably not going to MY view about the BikeRacks. The Rangers' decision has been made, regardless.

hal, Cerin's using the "Chill, Babe" because that's what Lidless said to her earlier when she spoke up. I didn't think it was particularly helpful when Lidless did it, and I don't think it's particularly helpful now that Cerin's doing it. I think you (hal) are probably finding it as infuriating as she must have. Also, please don't keep bringing truehobbit into this. :scratch: She has only posted a couple of times on this particular issue, but so have dozens of posters who have largely been disregarded. :( I'm not ignorant, I'm aware there's bad blood between th and Lidless, but I really really don't see evidence of a Cerin/truehobbit "syndicate" going on.

Last edited by Tinsel_the_Elf on Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:18 pm
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halplm wrote:
are you intentionally infuriating? Because the whole "Chill babe" thing is an attempt to make people think you're perfectly fine with all this, and the FUCK YOU type posts of last night seem a little different coming from you.
What's this. Are you complaining about something?

Btw, I didn't say 'Fuck you' to anyone, and I don't believe I did any shouting. What I said was something like, I don't give a flying fuck if I alienate people who put their 'need' to have fun above another member's need to resolve disputes in the Outside Forum.

Quote:
The issue you will not drop is the continuation to complain, not this one issue.

Naturally I will not agree not to complain when I see people violating the Charter in a way I feel is harmful to the community. What an absolutely bizarre idea. It is really quite singular.

Quote:
And don't give me that garbage of "go find me hard evidence."
Ok, then, you are full of shit, and now everybody knows it. If you say I complain all the time, then you'd damned well better provide at least some recollections of things other than this that I have complained about, or shut the hell up.

The next time you state that I have complained frequently about things other than these two Bike Racks incident without saying what you are refering to, I will bring a complaint against you for unsubstantiated personal attack and ask for a hearing against you.

Quote:
Part of what you did that fits into this whole thing was an insistance on ABSOLUTELY strict adherance to the rules in the whole TOE ammendment business, when it was clearly unnecessary and only caused delays and hurt feelings. you were unwilling to see the greater good because you didn't like how things were turning out. You say you devoted a lot of time and effort to making that work. From outside, it looked like you did everything you could to make it a painful process and control the situation because you thought you knew what was best.
What a total load of bs from someone who isn't willing to lift a finger to improve things around here. You're damned right that I insisted on strict adherance to the rules, lest anyone of the hordes of people ready to complain about me might have grounds to accuse me of doing something wrong and invalidate the procedure. You're damned right I did.

Quote:
We're being inclusive
How?

Quote:
We're trying to find a way to coexist freely
How? By encouraging me to agree with you?

:LMAO:

Quote:
so we don't have to keep dealing with this issue.

With the issue of people complaining when you deliberately break the rules? I think that's something you'll always have to deal with.

Quote:
Don't you DARE say it's us who need to drop it.
Just drop it, hal.


Thank you, Lidless, for your stated intent to respond to my other post.

If others do not post, I say I will take it that they do not exist; of course, I'm not saying it is proof that they don't exist. I'm just not willing to take your word for it, and also I'm trying to encourage a bit of openness here, as I think this sort of intrigue is one of the things that caused such trauma at the other place. In any case, if no one is willing to show up, perhaps you would agree to stop referring to the invisible hordes to bolster the things you say, since there would be no such evidence to back you up.

Quote:
how about you come up with a compromise.
I've stated plainly that there is no room for compromise for me as far as the Bike Racks is concerned. That is, I believe it is a misuse of the forum, it has ruined the forum for use by myself, and I will certainly complain in the future if people attempt to use the forum for that purpose again. I will hope that the next time, perhaps my request to have the thread moved will be accepted rather than denied.

Why don't we wait (and I'm willing to wait, I have other things to attend to as well), and then after you've given the evidence of what you consider my complaining to be (no longer referring to others who are sick of it if they aren't willing to show up), maybe we'll have a better understanding of what it is you feel we need to compromise about? At this point, I really have no idea what it is you want from me.

Quote:
One that will allow posters to make self-referential self-mocking threads
I have no objection to that taking place on most forums, but I believe the forums that have Charter text defining their use should be respected. No mocking of the function of ToE in ToE, no mocking of the function of role-play in role play, no mocking of the function of Bike Racks in Bike Racks.

Quote:
Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional.

Try it.
Did you try selling this to Estel when she said she wouldn't be able to use ToE if safeguards weren't put up to guard the level of trust?

If not, then please don't try selling it to me.


tp, thank you very much for that clarification. It was most helpful.


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halplm
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:26 pm
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So yet again,it's your way or no way.

Tell me this, Cerin. Which would you prefer. A group of people leaving Board77, starting another board, getting people to leave here to go there, splitting this group, and causing a whole lot of people to not know where they should go, or what they should do, basically destroying Board77? Or having One or two posters, who are driving that group away, relax their standards for what is allowed on the board?

I'll have you know that at least I, and I believe Lidless, are fighting this so hard because we see it as exactly the same as what happened at TORC. A small group or one person putting more importance on the ambiguous and unequally enforced rules than on the posters. The parallels to the events that led to Board77s existance are uncanny, and baffling to me.

Cerin, you are fighting for EXACTLY what drove peopel from TORC.

What do you want Board77 to be? What do YOU want out of it? I know what I want, and I kind of know what Lidless wants, but I have NO idea what YOU want out of this place. You seem willing to destroy it to get that, though, so I'd like to know what's so great that you're looking for.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:26 pm
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I would make a lousy ranger. I've always known that. I'm at peace with it. :D

Someone, somewhere, on one of these threads said that we left TORC because there were too many rules.

This is not the case.

We left TORC because essentially there was only one rule: do what I say or leave. The "I" in question may have been different people, but it didn't matter all that much...it was about power, and having it, or not. And power may not always corrupt, but it does always corrode.

No one here has that power. Not even the whole board together can permanently ban someone (sorry, hal ;)). Instead of a rule of power, we have been trying a true rule of laws. Laws we made, laws we approved, laws that we choose to post by...or to abandon in favor of the only alternative, the rule of power. Because anarchy and dictatorships have that in common: the strong run the show, in name or in fact.

Earlier I said that arguing about the Charter was the only thing that kept us from going after each other directly. I was half-joking then, but I am not now. Arguing about what the rules should be, and how they should be interpreted and enforced, has recently been in point of fact a surrogate for attacking people. This is not a matter of mind-reading, but of simply reading critically, something I happen to have some training in.

This will not do.

No one here has a right to drive people off this board simply because they don't like them or their ideas. Period. And whether that's the name put to it, or the intent, is irrelevant, because that has become the result. No one has the right to tell someone to change or leave, or even to change or be made miserable. That is the rule of power, and it doesn't belong here.

By the same token: no one's ideas or standards are more important than the structure we have created here for expressing them, because without that structure, the ideas et al are moot. Something can be imperfect and yet still functional, albeit less than optimal. That would be just about everything in life--including the Bike Racks, currently. Yet we muddle through life, do we not?

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:29 pm
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So, Ax, what do you suggest? You seem to be saying that there is no resolution and we are doomed to have this argument forever.

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Tinsel_the_Elf
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:38 pm
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halplm wrote:
So, Ax, what do you suggest? You seem to be saying that there is no resolution and we are doomed to have this argument forever.
Hal, you addressed this to Ax but I'd like respond---the argument will continue as long as the participants are willing to participate. Cerin will continue to answer anyone who debates her position, so will you. Again, the continuation of your argument is not going to affect what happens to that thread in BR at this time.

Can't you agree to disagree?

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Fixer
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:42 pm
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halplm wrote:
So, Ax, what do you suggest? You seem to be saying that there is no resolution and we are doomed to have this argument forever.
If that is what he is saying, I am inclined to agree.

Cerin will not change her mind, and it would be arrogant for anyone to attempt to do so believing their opinion is so much more important than hers.

If this issue comes up again, she will have the right to complain about it, because this board protects the rights of each individual to speak their opinions.

The ONLY way to prevent this from occuring again is to prevent people from speaking freely. Even if the Charter is ammended to add in an allowance for joke threads it will still be ALLOWED to be argued that they have no place there.

Hal, you are beating your head on the brick wall we have all come to know and love as Cerin. Will you have to lose consciousness before you realize you are not going to get anywhere or shall we just wait for you to collapse?

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:44 pm
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halplm wrote:
Alright, here's a compromise. I don't feel this discussion is worth continuting outside of the bikeracks without a mediator. It's not the same as the thread TED started, it's Cerin (and possibly truehobbit, but she's been rather silent on the issue) and myself. There are others involved, particularly Lidless, but Cerin has refused to deal with him which I still think is counterproductive to conflict resolution, but here we are compromising.

I suggest the joke thread currently there be moved to m77t and g77k for the time being with the understanding (a promise from Jnyusa will be fine for me) that it will be moved back as soon as our conflict is resolved or ended in some way. Then, depending on the outcome of that resolution, appropriate action on that thread will be taken, whether it is left alone, moved, locked, or deleted.

Thus, the forum will be "pure" so Cerin can go there, Lidless will not be involved, at least in the actual thread, so he doesn't have to apologize just to get things going, and we can have an actual mediated discussion of this.
A few things.

Lidless and I are talking.

Whose permission would have to be secured to temporarily move the thread?

I would agree to a mediated thread in Bike Racks if the mock thread is removed, but I warn you, if this has to do with me constantly complaining and trying to control EXACTLY how other people behave, then you'd better have some real examples of me doing that other than these Bike Racks incidents if that is your claim. Of course, you can't have such evidence because I haven't ever done it except for these two times.

So please figure out what kind of discussion you think you can have with me that doesn't involve unsubstantiated accusations (because at the first sign of one, I will be out of there and ask for a hearing against you for harrassment and personal attack). Let me know here what that thread would be about, and then we can agree to it if all the necessary permissions can be secured.

Quote:
Cerin, you are fighting for EXACTLY what drove peopel from TORC.
No. I had been fighting for the mock thread to be moved out of Bike Racks because I believe it violates the Charter and is harmful to the community. It has certainly harmed me, because I cannot use the Bike Racks while the thread is in there.

I am not currently fighting for anything at the moment.

I do not understand what it is that you are fighting for, beyond getting me to shut up about what I care about and believe in.


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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:44 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Cerin wrote:
I've stated plainly that there is no room for compromise for me as far as the Bike Racks is concerned. That is, I believe it is a misuse of the forum, it has ruined the forum for use by myself, and I will certainly complain in the future if people attempt to use the forum for that purpose again. I will hope that the next time, perhaps my request to have the thread moved will be accepted rather than denied.

Why don't we wait (and I'm willing to wait, I have other things to attend to as well), and then after you've given the evidence of what you consider my complaining to be (no longer referring to others who are sick of it if they aren't willing to show up), maybe we'll have a better understanding of what it is you feel we need to compromise about? At this point, I really have no idea what it is you want from me.
No Cerin, you know exactly what is wrong. Again, you refuse to compromise on even starting to compromise.

I made it clear what the compromise was about. It was nothing about you. It was about co-existence.
Eye wrote:
A real compromise - one that will satisfy both sides of this debate. One that will allow posters to make self-referential self-mocking threads (one of the core esprit de corps of B77 and the old TORC) and the occasional healthy flexing of the rules which everyone can live with.
That has nothing to do with any perceived problems with you per se.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to jump through hoops if you are not willing to do the same. I'm willing to tango, but to do it alone is unacceptable and a silly dance.

Compromise. Work with me on this. Be an equal partner. You're part of a society, and as part of a society, compromise is a way of life. Your "no room to compromise" - a comment you have made on many issues (post to follow if Cerin's willing to start working on a compromise) - might suggest to some you should not be part of this society, or at least quakes will be inevitable from a poster with this attitude being here.

And for the sake of peace, I shall not respond to this insult (to me the worst of insults) other than pointing it out:
Cerin wrote:
If others do not post, I say I will take it that they do not exist; of course, I'm not saying it is proof that they don't exist. I'm just not willing to take your word for it...



Regarding humor and multiple mock-BR threads, TP has it right. Permit me to expand on this and perhaps it will shed some light on where both sides are coming from.

Humor
Seeing Lucy's face as she tramples grapes is funny. But to see the same grape-treading and reaction in every episode is not.

One of the key aspects of humor is the unexpected. The unexpected twist of logic, the unexpected prat-fall, the unexpected situation. That's why Cerin's use of "Chill, babe" was funny.

Humor is surprise without promise or threat.

Promise
When I get a letter saying I have been pre-approved for a great credit card is a surprise (well, not much of one if you live in America), but it isn't funny because there is a promise involved. Telling someone they have won the lottery (when it's a prank) is a surprise, but a promise too, so it isn't funny.

Threat
Finding a Cruise missile is heading towards your house is a surprise, but it isn't funny because there is a threat.

Ethnic jokes are funnier when someone of that ethnicity tells them because there is less of an implied threat. What applies to ethnic jokes applies to jokes about any group. Insiders telling jokes about the group represent less of a threat than outsiders telling the same jokes. The same is true of religious jokes, for example.

Sexual humor is not funny to people who believe that the loose morals the humor represents threaten a way of life. Making fun of religious beliefs is not funny to people who hold those beliefs sacred. Anyone who takes something very seriously might be offended by humor directed at that something, if the humor is seen as threatening the importance of that something.

I could write a lot here about humor - especially in its use to minimize the sense of threat (dentists are trained to use humor, for example), and how it is used to help in the cohesion of a group, but alas work calls.

Summary
So basically, having the one thread in the BR is funny to many because it is a surprise and they see no perceived threat to the use of the BR forum. Cerin and others do not, because even though it was a surprise, they do see it as a threat. And this is especially the case to those who were involved in drafting the rules. If Cerin herself had started a mock thread, it would have been even funnier because the surprise would have been greater and any perceived threat reduced.

Whether it is a threat or not is a matter of perception and ultimately is in one's own head. There is no right or wrong.

However, whatever one thinks of TED's or my threads, if a continual series of mock threads were put up, the surprise, and therefore the humor, evaporates. I think the posters here are mature and clever enough to work that out for themselves and to self-regulate accordingly.

I too would not welcome another mock thread - at least not for several months.

Last edited by Lidless on Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:49 pm
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No, I'm saying we are doomed to have this argument forever if we decide to have this argument forever. That is, if everyone insists on forcing "the other side" to cave, as opposed to actually seeking a solution.

Winning isn't everything. In this particular case, it's actually nothing.

I will be specific in my suggestions:

The BR may not be perfect, but they never were. I agree that some people don't seem to take them, or anything else, seriously, but if that made something invalid, most of society's laws would be too. If there is to be a useful discussion, that's where it has to be, where all the extraneous chatter can be at least controlled. Especially, for those who are interested in rehabilitating their function, the first step must be to go there, even if they are not currently ideal. The alternative is writing off them, the Charter, and this board.

No more sniping, personal attacks (direct or veiled), or attempting to get in "last licks." Keeping score of such at this point is not only counterproductive but petty.

No more insistance by anyone that only the other side is intransigent. If this were actually the case, we would be done by now. There are stiff necks aplenty this time around, and they are evenly distributed.

Formulate every question, every comment, every observation you think about making about someone else as if they were making it about you before you post it.

Treat this board as if it's yours to fuck up, not yours to keep.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:53 pm
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I love it when people explain humor, 'cause I really don't get it.

I wasn't trying to be funny when I suggested that those still arguing go sign up to be rangers.

I was terribly serious, and I wish people would. It would be good for everybody.





.

Last edited by MariaHobbit on Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Fixer
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:54 pm
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I am too independent to be a Ranger (at least as they are defined on this Board). Thanks anyway, Maria.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:56 pm
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I'm weirder than just about everyone on the board, Fixer, and I have a contrary streak in me that runs about 2 miles wide. If I can do it, you can!







edit: I keep forgetting to put in the spaces between my sig and words. :doh1:

Last edited by MariaHobbit on Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tinsel_the_Elf
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:56 pm
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I'm willing to do it, but some of us newbies haven't reached proper Ranger age yet (isn't it six months?). :D


Edit: (Completely off the subject at hand) Lidless, your commentary on humour and its relationship to threat or perceived threat was one of the most interesting things I've thought about in a long time. Esp. in regards to ethnic humour. It clarified to me why I feel so uneasy about it at some times, but not in others.

Last edited by Tinsel_the_Elf on Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 4:58 pm
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Lidless wrote:
No Cerin, you know exactly what is wrong.
If you will not take me at my word, then there is no point in us talking.

After you have provided your evidence, then I will know better what it is you want from me. At this point, I have absolutely no clue what you want from me.

I'm not asking you to tango alone. I'm saying, provide evidence of the accusations you have brought against me to prove that they are not a load of bull. If you can't or won't do it, then it means they are a load of bull and you and you alone -- your misplaced anger at me -- is the root of the problem here.

I'll be happy to seek a compromise once you provide the evidence for the accusations you have levelled against me, so that I understand what it is you want me to compromise about.

As to the perceived insult, sorry, but you have done nothing to earn my personal trust or respect, just the contrary recently. If there are hordes of people complaining about my complaining behind the scenes, then perhaps some of them will be willing to show up. If not, I'll ask you not to refer to them to bolster your arguments.

I certainly hope we don't get derailed before we even begin. You asked me to wait and I agreed. Now I'm asking you to wait. I hope you'll agree as well. As I said, there is nothing further I can offer at this time, because I really don't know what you want from me. I need to know specifically what you are talking about, the real, many things I have done that supposed hordes are fed up with.


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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:00 pm
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Shoot! I keep forgetting some of you haven't been here long.

*grumble, grumble*








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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:06 pm
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English Literature Exam

Q1.
Cerin wrote:
If you will not take me at my word, then there is no point in us talking.
Cerin wrote:
As to the perceived insult, sorry, but you have done nothing to earn my personal trust or respect.
Compare and contrast. (50 marks)


Q2.
Lidless wrote:
And for the sake of peace, I shall not respond to this insult (to me the worst of insults) other than pointing it out:
Cerin wrote:
If others do not post, I say I will take it that they do not exist; of course, I'm not saying it is proof that they don't exist. I'm just not willing to take your word for it...
Cerin wrote:
If you will not take me at my word, then there is no point in us talking.
Compare and contrast. (50 marks)


Or is that 25.56 euros these days?

Last edited by Lidless on Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:08 pm
Not so deep as a well
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Maria--

I knew you were serious. So was I. I would make a terrible ranger, or mayor, or anything requiring me to fulfill official expectations for an extended period of time without a set end goal. Committee work such as I have done produces something at the end of the process. Rangering is like mowing the lawn, that is, far too much like RL work for me.

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Fixer
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:16 pm
The Man who Knows his Tools
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Cerin, I mean this seriously: Have you ever considered the possibility that a lot of people don't disagree with you because the idea of arguing with you scares the shit out of them?

From a perspective of someone who used to deal in fear a lot, I can say that one quick way of making no one disagree with you is to make them too afraid of you to speak up. I am not saying you intentionally do this. By the very nature of your uncompromising stance, the length of your posts, and your ability to project your emotion into text you are a pretty damned fierce beast on a message board. In my time on the net I haven't enountered many who are quite so naturally intimidating as you.

Do not take take the absence of voices against you as a lack of them. They are more afraid to speak up and face your wrath than they deem the worth of their own opinion. I am sure there are just as many who do so with Lidless, Hal, and myself.


Now... about this compromise thing. Has anyone actually offered one? My battle was done once the decision was made not to move the thread so now I am trying to calm the 'natives'.

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