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The Mooter Thread in Bike Racks

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:28 pm
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Well, Lidless, allow me to clarify.

I told you I can't respond to your request for a compromise until you provide the examples of what you were talking about as far as me complaining constantly, because without them I don't know what it is you want from me.

You said, yes, I do know exactly what you are talking about.

I say, no I don't know what you you are talking about.

So if you don't believe me and refuse to provide the evidence until I compromise about something I don't understand, then our conversation has ended before it begins.


As for me taking your word for hordes of people complaining about me behind the scenes, I want evidence of that IF you are to use it to bolster your arguments.

If you feel that me requiring evidence of people behind the scenes rather than trusting your word prevents us from continuing, then that is of course your right as well. And so once again, our conversation will have ended before it has begun.

So. Up to you. Will you provide the evidence of the many complaints you have accused me of before insisting that I compromise about something that I don't understand? If not, I guess we're done.

Will you agree to continue the conversation even though I am asking for evidence of complaining hordes if they are to be introduced into the argument to bolster you points? If not, I guess we're done.


On the off chance that what you're saying is that you want me to offer some compromise on the Bike Racks, I've explained that there is no room for compromise for me on that issue.

That forum requires a certain level of trust, that people who make themselves vulnerable to board scrutiny while openly and honestly dealing with personal issues will be taken seriously and respected. (This is similar in concept if not degree to the requirement for trust in ToE, which I know you understand so well. ) That level of trust is destroyed for me by the presence of a mock thread in that forum. That is simply the way it is. There is nothing for me to compromise about.


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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:33 pm
Not so deep as a well
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Quote:
That level of trust is destroyed for me by the presence of a mock thread in that forum. That is simply the way it is. There is nothing for me to compromise about.
Destroyed? As in obliterated? Nada left?

I submit that our institutions are only as fragile as the people who use them.

If you want the BR back, take them back. No one is going to give them to you.

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In some cases, firing the drummer helps.


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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:33 pm
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Fixer, I take your point.

What I'm saying is, Lidless should not refer to hordes of people to bolster his arguments if he is unable to produce evidence of them and what it is they say I am constantly complaining about (other than these two recent Bikes Racks incidents).

My point is simple. Produce the evidence to back up the accusations, or stop making them.


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Di of Long Cleeve
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:36 pm
Frodo's girl through and through
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Maria
Maria, I wasn't ignoring you either. :( :hug:

But I don't want to be a Ranger either, for all the reasons Axordil said. :)

Hal
halplm wrote:
I refuse to gather evidence, because that's the past, and I'm concerned with the future. Cerin seems only concerned with infuriating eveyrone who disagrees with her such that they look bad and she looks pristine.
Bullshit, Hal. What a childish POV.

For the record, I want it known that Cerin hasn't infuriated me, nor do I think she particularly lacks social skills, despite the PR campaign to persuade us that she does.

She may lack social GRACES sometimes, that I admit. :D Sorry, Cerin. :)

No, Cerin isn't infuriating me - I am gobsmacked at her ability to stand her ground, I'd have caved long ago, that or thrown my laptop out of the window - but your behaviour, Hal, is driving me NUTS.

I don't at all agree this is the same situation as at TORC. Apart from anything else, nobody has the power to ban you or shut you up. Although I do wish, Hal, that you WOULD shut up. But you won't, of course. You never do. At least I have the freedom to voice just how deeply with all my heart I wish that you would. Just this once. But no, you won't. You will just continue to hassle and hassle and hassle and BE A BULLY. Pah.

Cerin may be obdurate, but a bully she is NOT, and you calling her one just makes me laugh.

Di's pathetic wisdom on B77 (and I cribbed this from somebody else, for which apologies)
The great virtue/great potential problem with B77 is that on a self-moderated board like this everybody can have the opportunity to be Ranger, and everybody gets the chance to say how the place should be run. Which is fine. But, in effect, it means that we all act like moderators together and nobody is going to be happy all the time because there will always be somebody somewhere on this board unhappy about somebody else's decision.

What a high maintenance bunch of people. ;)

To Lidless and Fixer
People are scared of Cerin?

Listen up, you two. I had some pretty sharp dingdongs with Cerin, long ago, in the TORC M00bies forum ... they did get resolved amicably, in the end:) but, blimey, the two of us certainly clashed on occasion. :Q My sharpest disagreement with her was over Kelannar, whom I thought the most obnoxious and self-centred poster I have ever met in my five years of the fandom.

But Cerin has never scared me. And she will apologise if she thinks she is wrong. As will I.

Now, Kelannar used to scare me (and a lot of others.) He was probably the rudest poster I ever encountered in my five years of the fandom. That's why I reacted to him so strongly.

And Steve, man ... you can scare me. :( I certainly wouldn't care to get on the wrong side of you.

The amount of hostility expressed toward Cerin is one of the saddest sights I've ever seen, internetwise.

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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:37 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Cerin,

It's all about you.

Pity.

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:42 pm
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Quote:
Destroyed? As in obliterated? Nada left?

I submit that our institutions are only as fragile as the people who use them.
You of all people, Ax.

Why did you not counsel this to Estel, Wilma, tp and others? I never heard you say this sort of thing to any of those posters who were saying they would have to delete their threads or stop posting in ToE. Never did I hear you question the validity of their need for a certain level of trust, or their assertions that the forum would be destroyed for them without a safeguard.

I really am quite hurt by this comment coming from you.

Quote:
If you want the BR back, take them back. No one is going to give them to you.
I have done everything I can think of to this point to take back the Bike Racks. The only way I can take them back is to have the mock thread removed from them, but I don't know of any way to accomplish that. I do not have the time or energy at this time to head the process of bringing a binding vote to the membership to have the thread removed. I just don't.


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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:45 pm
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Well, Lidless, too bad.

I will still eagerly await the evidence of the accusations you brought against me.

If you can produce none, then obviously they are a load of bull. If you continue to make such statements against me without evidence, I will ask for a hearing for harrassment and personal attack.


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halplm
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:50 pm
b77 whipping boy
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I'm going to bow out of this argument for now. I feel that if I continue there really will be cause for a hearing against me.

I tried to offer a compromise, but Cerin said that if she allowed it, I had to provide evidence for something I'm not even arguing about any more or she's going to call a hearing against me. That is not a spirit of cooperation or a desire to resolve conflict, it is turning the bikeracks into a trial against her that she will punish people for starting if they don't meet an arbitrary standard that SHE HAS SET for its validity.

I know I said I wouldn't give in this time, and I'm not. I'm just not willing to destroy the board over one poster, and apparently none of my ideas for how to fix the situation are viable, and Cerin is unwilling to be flexible at all without a fix to the situation, so I guess I'm done.

It's funny too, because I never feel like I'm walking on eggshells, because I simply do not go as far as others with my joking. I called TheMary a Bitch last night on YIM and I knew she knew I was joking, and it worked as a joke, but it almost hurt me worse than was worth it, because I would never ever do that for real.

I still don't feel like I'm going to be walking on eggshells, but I do feel like others will continue to have to, and in the end this place can't survive that and be anything it originally (pre-charter and openning) was meant to be.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 5:57 pm
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Cerin, I do not consider the ToE an institution the same way I do the BR. Both are important, but where ToE is part of what the board is, the BR is also part of how it works. I would say that ToE is one of the fora that makes it worth coming here...but the BR is one of the things that makes it possible for there to be a "here" to come to.

Moreover, the nature of the trust needed in the two is quite different, as the nature of the information contained in the two differs. When one posts in ToE, one trusts that no one there will use the private information there inappropriately. That constraint is not applicable in the BR, by nature and design a public forum.

This is not meant to belittle your belief that a rupture has taken place in the ability of people to take the BR seriously. For a lot of us, this is certainly the case. What I'm saying is that none of us, you included, can expect our personal standards for the board or any part of it to be treated as more important than the board's continued function. That would be far too much like saving the village from the VC by destroying it. Thus my call for you to take the proper function of the BR back by exercizing it, as opposed to passively awaiting TPTB to exorcize it.

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In some cases, firing the drummer helps.


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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:05 pm
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halplm wrote:
I tried to offer a compromise, but Cerin said that if she allowed it, I had to provide evidence for something I'm not even arguing about any more or she's going to call a hearing against me.
Dead wrong, halplm. I said that I would not tolerate you making unsubstantiated accusations against me any longer, and IF the point of a thread was to be those same unsubstantiated accusations, then there is no point to it.

I also said that IF there is something you want the thread to be about that doesn't involve your making unsubstantiated accusations against me, and if we are able to secure the required permissions, and if you will define here what it is you want to talk to me about that doesn't involve your making unsubstantiated accusations against me, then we can agree together to have the thread.

If you back out now, I take it as an acknowledgement that all your complaints against me are completely bogus and that along with Lidless, you are angry because you are not getting your way with the board. You need a focal point for venting your wrath and for blaming all the problems of the board on that are actually a symptom of your anger, and you have chosen me because I happen to be very vocal and happen to be on the other side of you on many board issues. What a load of

BULLSHIT

Maybe you can sell that to someone as fertilizer.

And I thank you both for clearing that up, albeit in an indirect way.


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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:11 pm
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Ax, thank you for that clarification.


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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:28 pm
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editted because I decided my post wasn't helpful

This being the Business forum, this should probably be reserved for Business. The personal dispute between hal, Steve, and Cerin is not Business, so I'm bowing out of that.

Last edited by yovargas on Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:29 pm
Daydream Believer
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No I think we are all tired of it.

We all have complaints about the board. But this continual whining from EVERYONE is purely a self-centered justification for our super-egos. So we can sit around in our holier than thou righteous thrown of superiority. Well it is only isolating and driving people from the board. So if that was the mission set out, well it has been accomplished in spades.

This is not something we need to continue. Either we get over our enormous egotistical blow hard refusal to see anything but our own side, or we loose everything.

So I ask everyone.


IS THIS WORTH IT? IS THIS BATTLE WORTH LOSING EVERYTHING?

Last edited by Ara-anna on Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:31 pm
Not so deep as a well
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Quote:
And BTW just because someone does not want to continue the battle does not make them wrong.
This is a hard, hard lesson for some of us, I know. Really, I know. When I left Manwe, part of me felt as if I was surrendering to the "bad guys."

But it's so true.

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In some cases, firing the drummer helps.


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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:41 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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MariaHobbit wrote:
I love it when people explain humor, 'cause I really don't get it.

I wasn't trying to be funny when I suggested that those still arguing go sign up to be rangers.

I was terribly serious, and I wish people would. It would be good for everybody.





.
And I seriously asked right after you suggested it where I could sign up!!! I'm still waiting for an answer missy :D What this board really needs is Ranger TheMary, sign me up!!! Linky please!!

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Lay down
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Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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Riverthalos
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:47 pm
bioalchemist
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Yeah, sometimes it's better to just walk away.

It's just the Bike Racks. Come on guys. There's better, more important things to focus your energy on.

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Fixer
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:51 pm
The Man who Knows his Tools
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TheMary wrote:
And I seriously asked right after you suggested it where I could sign up!!! I'm still waiting for an answer missy :D What this board really needs is Ranger TheMary, sign me up!!! Linky please!!
http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic. ... um=board77

Apparently you need to talk to Eruname, as the acting Mayor.

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:54 pm
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...

Last edited by Eruname on Mon 21 Nov , 2005 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:55 pm
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You can't be a ranger until you've been here for six months Mary. You won't be eligible until Dec. 27th I believe. I will add you then.

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abandon yourself.
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Fixer
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 6:57 pm
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Erunáme wrote:
You can't be a ranger until you've been here for six months Mary. You won't be eligible until Dec. 27th I believe. I will add you then.
She can gain access to the training forum, though, right?

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