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The Mooter Thread in Bike Racks

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 7:04 pm
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Yes. Anyone can join.

I'm not sure if my recent latest post was appropriate for this forum or not. Some of it discussed the bikeracks, but a part of it didn't, but that part was answering a question that had been posed in this thread.

Apologies if it didn't belong here.

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abandon yourself.
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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 7:28 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Thanks informative people!! Just you all wait...December 27th isn't that far off =:)

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Night is falling
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Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
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Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 7:31 pm
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**quakes in terror, or perhaps anticipation**

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Sister Magpie
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 7:33 pm
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Quote:
I completely agree with you and this is why I find Cerin's refusal to use the bikeracks quite baffling.
Really? Because it made perfect sense to me. I wasn't going to post anything here, but since this question is raised...

To start with, I've had disagreements with Cerin in the past and so I know when she disagrees she really disagrees. :) But I have never been scared of her.

In this case I agree with her, not because I'm intimidated but because after dozens of pages of arguing, her original point seems only more proved by the arguments. If you want to have an area on the board set aside for serious disputes to be settled, all you have to do to have it is: have an area on the board set aside for serious disputes to be settled. It either is or it isn't. It's a place to blow off steam and play or the place to earnestly resolve conflict. The only thing keeping these boards what they are is people agreeing to post according to their definition. It's not that hard.

I certainly wouldn't consider myself to have "lost" anything if the BR disappeared. The result of people "winning" the right to have mock threads in them would simply be that the BR, as I originally understood them, would not exist for me on the board. Not in some dramatic way where I'm in mourning for my holy bike racks or felt I'd been personally insulted. It probably would not effect me personally one way or another,
but if I did get into a thing with someone and was requested to move it to the BR I would see it as a pointless annoyance where before I would accept it as a rule I followed to keep the board moving more smoothly.

Cerin's refusing to use the BR, to me, was the obvious result of the threads. The BR *were* the dispute, so there was no point in going to them to resolve it. The name "bike racks" I assume is supposed imply you are stepping outside to have something out in the fresh air. If the bike racks are inside, what's the point of going there? It's not neutral territory.

I understand that some people have no problem with defining the BR as a place to blow off steam at people and play, and then turning around and earnestly encouraging someone to use it as a conflict resolution space. But surely it's not so strange that other people do have a problem with it? The bike racks has always been metaphorical, obviously. The only reason it's the place for serious conflict resolution is because it's been designated that. If we don't use it for that, it stops being that. I would become more self-conscious about dragging myself over there to have my argument and, as was said above, my tone would probably start becoming more like the mock threads.

Some don't understand putting the effort into keeping the BR for serious disputes. To me that effort at least seems more logical that putting tons of effort into making it a space for personal disputes *and* mocking threads, since the original point of having the space for personal disputes seemed to be to make the board run more smoothly.

I'm not a big person for rules, but on mbs I just find it's less of a hassle all around to stick to the guidelines that are there to make things easier. I mod at another board, and maybe that's why the minute somebody starts trying to twist the ToS or redefine something and here's their long reason why, I just get impatient. My response to this is much like the response I had to the girl on the place that I mod who didn't want to follow the "you must use proper capitalization--that includes I" rule because she thought capitalizing "I" was putting herself on the same level as God. You can indulge your personal expression all you want and still follow the basic rules of the board, which you agreed to when you registered. As someone trying to keep the board going smoothly, you get the jokes that people are trying to make, and they just get old. If I were modding the bike racks the way I do my forums there? I'd simply have moved the thread to someplace else. No censorship, no deleting. Just being a traffic cop. Yes, the joke loses that surprise aspect because it's not in the BR anymore, but people can only be surprised once, yeah? They were surprised once, now it can move.
Quote:
People have made fun of Christianity for hundreds of years. They've mocked it, they've messed around in churches and been quite mean about it, but I'm guessing (pardon for doing so Cerin) she is still able to go to church and not let that mocking mar her experience.
I'm pretty sure that if Cerin walked into church and the priest/minister gave a joke sermon, she'd walk out since, by definition, church is supposed to be the place it's not mocked. At the very least she's getting her time wasted. For most people, there's little point in going to church if God doesn't exist. Similarly, Cerin seems to have no problem whatsoever with mock threads elsewhere on the site. At least that's how I've understood her. I think you'd have to be an android not to mock stuff around here once in a while.

-m


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 7:43 pm
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Erunáme wrote:
Voronwe wrote:
Eru, I'm afraid its not that simple. I'm not sure that you comprehend the delicate balance that is necessary to successfully mediate a serious dispute.
Wow. Thanks Voronwe. This isn't the first time you've posted something about my lack of comprehension or intelligence. At least I know how you really feel.
Eru, my apologies. That's not what I mean at all, though I totally understand why you would think that I did. I put that very badly. As I have told you many times before, I have a lot of respect for you and think you are very intelligent. Otherwise I would never have nominated you for Mayor. All I meant is that you don't have the experience that I do. Very few people here do. I'm trying to explain why I feel the way I do, based on the fact that I have that experience. TP is one that is starting to get some of the same experience. I wish you would go back and read her comments in response to the very quote that you took offense to.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 9:20 pm
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People, I am entering this dispute in official capacity, such as it is. The dispute has spread throughout the Business Room and the Bike Racks and I have been dealing with this issue interminably for days now.

There is nothing in our by-laws that says posters cannot be belligerent, conspiratorial, unreasonable, and occasionally vulgar and obscene. But these are some excerpts from our Key Principles.


[bolded are things that apply to me as a Ranger]

We are tolerant toward other viewpoints and opinions without hesitating to express our own.

We listen to one another, make good-faith efforts to understand one another, and we treat one another respectfully at all times.

Administration and enforcement of by-laws is done as fairly and openly as possible.

We see value in exercising power and dealing with challenges publicly, rather than behind the scenes, because this safeguards against the undermining of our principles by privately-made decisions. This approach requires courage and trustworthiness from our members, and a willingness to be frank and forthright in our dealings with one another.

The members of Board77 believe that externally imposed and enforced rules can stifle free expression; our solution is to leave responsibility for governance in the hands of the members. No member of board77 is more important than any other member, and no single member or group of members ever holds absolute power. We are all responsible for participating in board governance and we are all accountable for our own actions.


I am the only person with an administrator panel in front of me who is also willing to step into the middle of this mess. I am also a member affected by this mess. As I understand my Ranger role, I can exercise extraordinary power if the board is threatened, as long as I do so publicly, fairly, and accountably.

This is a public announcement.

(1) I am going to use my Extraordinary Powers as a Ranger under Article 3 to take action which I hope will end this dispute because I believe in good faith that if this continues beyond the five days it has already continued, the Fellowship that holds this board together will be destroyed.

My taking action under this Article causes a Charter Amendment committee to be convened automatically. A thread will be started directly in this forum for convening a Charter Amendment committee following the exercise of extraordinary powers.

(2) It is necessary for me to be fair to all sides in this issue. It is not clear to me exactly what the underlying problem is, but it is clear to me that both sides in this dispute [and there may be more than two] feel that the board no longer operates as it should, that respect for their opinions has been trampled, and that they have been hurt. It is completely irrelevant at this point whether I agree or disagree that lighthearted threads should be allowed in the Bike Racks. I believe that I've already expressed my personal opinion about this, and it has nothing to do with the decision I'm making in this case. In fact, my decision is contrary to my personal opinion but I am doing what I believe to be fair.

I cannot banish to the Bike Racks Cerin and Lidless and hal and whomever else has become integral to this personal dispute and insist that they resolve their problem in that forum because Cerin refuses to use the forum while a thread exists which mocks its use. In any event I cannot force people into that forum except by banning them to that forum, and Cerin has made zero posts that contain "personal attacks, intentional insults based on minority status of other posters, abuse of other posters" or anything else that could be legitimately defined as "objectionable content" under our by-laws.

The mock thread does not, in fact, belong in the Bike Racks forum. Whether it is permitted in that forum will have to be decided by a Charter Amendment committee at this point. That is my decision.

But the form of protest that Cerin has chosen - not using the Bike Racks until the issue is clarified by the Charter - is a legitimate form of protest and I am not going to suspend her posting rights without cause.

(3) Accordingly, I must find a venue in which this discussion can continue. I have decided that the next best venue for this is the Symposium. In the Symposium we have those threads that are a mix of philosophy and dispute, which seems to me the best definition of what's going on here. I will start a new thread there for purposes of continuing this discussion. The thread will be up in about an hour, and its topic will be how to manage belligerence and other 'legal' behavior that threatens our Fellowship on B77.

What is allowed or not allowed in the Bike Racks forum will be handled by the Charter Amendment committee in this forum. They may, of course, define their actual scope however they see fit, since they are being convened under Article 3.

(4) This philosophical discussion/dispute should take place in one thread and one thread only, so that it does not again spread throughout the board and threaten the experience of every person posting here. Accordingly, as soon as the new thread is created, I am going to lock all the other threads to which this dispute has spread, including the two threads in the Bike Racks. I am closing the venues of every single "side" in this dispute. That is the only way I can see to treat everyone fairly. You are all going to be banished to the new thread in the Symposium for hashing this out.

My precedent: when the ToE was under amendment, we closed the forum until the issue was resolved. The rightness or wrongness of the Bike Racks thread in question is now officially under amendment and I am closing it until the issue is resolved.

An announcement will be placed in every thread that is affected. I am going to make that announcement now, that the thread will be locked approximately one hour from now, and I will give a link to this post.

I will not lock any thread until the new thread has been opened in the Symposium and I will provide a link to that new thread in every locked thread. This thread will then also be locked.

(4) Anyone who persists in starting new threads about this topic will be immediately confined to the Bike Racks and brought to a Hearing.

If you want to object to what I am doing here, you must do so by filling a complaint against ME. Proper procedure this time will be followed if we have to get every damn Loremaster on the board involved in order to do it. You may de-Ranger me by Hearing if a jury decides that I have abused my power.

This is the recourse provided by our by-laws, and I invite you to do it. It will make no matter to me if you get rid of me because if this dispute continues in this form, the probability of my remaining a member of this board is precisely zero.

Finally:

Before this thread is locked and the discussion is moved to the Symposium, I want to see three posts made in this thread.

Cerin, please restate, for the record, in one sentence, your original objection that started this dispute.

Lidless, please state, for the record, in one sentence, what is your objection to Cerin's first post in this thread.

hal, please state, for the record, in one sentence, what is your objection to Cerin's first post in this thread.

If any of you are not online between now and the locking of this thread, send me a PM and I will reopen the thread to allow you to post your statement.

If there is anyone else who feels integral to this dispute and wants to make a one-sentence statement of their position in this dispute, for the record, send me a PM and I will reopen to thread to allow you to post your statement.

If anyone else takes advantage of the thread being temporarily opened after the locking announcement has been made, and posts in the thread without first sending me a PM, I will delete your post.

This announcement is now over.

I have been public with what I am going to do, the reason I am doing it, and the Charter provisions that empower me to do it.

I have tried to be as fair as I can possibly be to all parties, given the circumstances.

I stand accountable for my actions. You may remove my Ranger powers if you with, providing you do so using due process.


Jnyusa

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 9:30 pm
Thanks to Holby
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I object to the Bike Racks being used for mock resolution threads or for any other heretofore unimagined use other than those specified because I believe using the forum in ways other than those specified is a clear violation of the Charter in spirit if not in letter and harms the community by depriving us of a place set aside for the earnest resolution of conflict.


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halplm
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 9:44 pm
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(I will not participate in the thread in the symposium, for the same reason I stopped in this thread. However, in the interests of somehow getting resolution I will do as Jnyusa asks here.)

I believe Cerin is unwilling to compromise what she thinks is best for the board or admit that what she thinks is best for the board might NOT be what's best for the board, and this is causing distress to people accross the board, particularly Lidless and thus, myself.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 9:59 pm
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Thank you, Cerin and Hal.

Jn

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 10:34 pm
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The new Symposium thread has been opened and stickied.

Legal Behaviors that Threaten the Fellowship of B77

I have to go to the store now and will lock the rest of the threads between 6:00pm and 6:30pm EST.

Jnyusa

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Epigraph on the tombstone of W.C. Fields.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 18 Nov , 2005 11:27 pm
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This thread will be locked in a few moments.

Discussion continues here:

Legal Behaviors that Threaten the Fellowship of B77

Anyone who wishes to make a one-sentence statement of their postition in this thread, please contact me via PM. I will open the thread for you to make your statement.

Jnyusa

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Epigraph on the tombstone of W.C. Fields.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sat 19 Nov , 2005 2:30 am
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Unlocked for Hobby to make a statement, at her request.

Jn

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truehobbit
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Posted: Sat 19 Nov , 2005 2:39 am
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In response to Jny's suggestion that participants make a one-sentence statement on their position in this:

I entered in this discussion because I also think the thread was objectionable, but more so because I thought that Cerin, after having politely stated her opinion, was being attacked by more than one person, and as a result was myself made the target of personal assaults by several posters, thus involving me in this discussion beyond the normal level.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 21 Nov , 2005 9:10 pm
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Unlocked for Lidless to make his statement, at his request.

Jn

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"All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."
Epigraph on the tombstone of W.C. Fields.


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Lidless
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Posted: Mon 21 Nov , 2005 9:28 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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One hopes that the complaints about one poster's unsociable intransigence can be separated from the secondary (in fact the main issue) of how two groups - one that likes a bit of healthy law-breaking in self-deprecation, and the other that insists on strict adherence to the rules at all times - can work things out quickly when they clash; or even work out what the overall ethos of B77 should be (a bit of a rebel or strict law-abiding citizens).

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