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halplm
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:17 pm
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It's funny though, the charter doesn't even mention board disruption as an actionable offence. Only that we have the right to forums free of disruption outside of the bikeracks.

However, calling a hearing is nowhere described as a means of disruption. It is in fact a remedy for it.

Then there's harassment, which is only defined as being through PM or email, hence not calling a hearing. Unless you define calling a hearing as harassing the ranger pool, which defeats the whole point as you have to be able to go the rangers if you think a hearing is required.

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:18 pm
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Note, of course, there's nothing in the charter about calling frivilous hearings as being an actionable offense.
Except insofar as spamming hearing requests constitute persistant personal attacks. Which they certainly would after the second frivolous hearing.

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halplm
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:19 pm
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If calling a hearing is a personal attack, no one should ever call one PERIOD!

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Lidless
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:19 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Sometimes you've just got to use your judgement. I'd say it was pretty obvious if hearing after hearing was called for no good reason. In either the case, the Rangers have special powers to act in cases not explicitely covered by any other Charter minutae.

And quite right to. Judgement should be the overriding key to B77, not Article x, para y, subclause z.a.iii

Last edited by Lidless on Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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halplm
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:20 pm
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Ah, so now we're back to the ranger's having judgement. I thought they weren't supposed to be judges?

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:21 pm
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Calling hearings repeatedly against someone solely for the sake of harassing them is harassment, and a Ranger would be justified in making that call. It is also disruption.

The right to post free of board disruption is one of the enforceable rights, meaning that it can be enforced by calling hearings.

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:23 pm
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Calling a hearing isn't an attack. Calling hearing after hearing can become one, if the results of those hearings indicate they were indeed frivolous.

I would be willing to give someone two frivolous hearings before I called it personal attacks. But I may be more tolerant than many.

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Lidless
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:24 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Yes hal, rangers should have judgement. You yourself have said that a little healthy rule-bending can increase the overall enjoyment of the board. If Rangers did not exert such judgement, every single rule would have to be enforced every single time.

That is the last thing you want. It's the antithesis of what you have been striving for.

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halplm
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:25 pm
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Primula_Baggins wrote:
Calling hearings repeatedly against someone solely for the sake of harassing them is harassment, and a Ranger would be justified in making that call. It is also disruption.

The right to post free of board disruption is one of the enforceable rights, meaning that it can be enforced by calling hearings.
Harrassment is defined by the charter as being in PMs and Emails, not in requests for hearings. We have a right to forums free of disruption by personal dispute, not free of disruption by peopel thinking our bylaws have been broken and calling a hearing for it.

I shouldn't have used frivolous. I meant unecessary. It may be unecessary for me to call a hearing against Steve for him making me the bad guy in his parody, but I certainly could and it would not be frivolous.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:30 pm
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Can I say something about this BR Lite idea... If people want a BR Lite, by all means, add it to the ballot, but remember something... I never (as one m77ter) requested to have one forum for serious resolution and one for mock resolutions/derailments. The fact that some keep saying that again ignores where I said NO to it much earlier in this entire debacle. I can't hold it against someone for not remembering this since there has been a lot said, but I wonder if any of my argument is actually being listened to by some, or is it easier to reconstruct my argument to argue against it.

Would a BR Lite be acceptable to me? It was be just as acceptable as a yovatorium, or Disney forum.

As for all this hearing business, we're learning that not all of our hypotheticals might work perfectly in practice.

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Lidless
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:31 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Quote:
Recognizing that unforeseen events may occur which require a quick response, Board77 Rangers are expected to use their best judgment in emergencies, and to take whatever action they believe necessary to protect the board. An emergency would be an event which threatened real and immediate harm, but which is not otherwise addressed by this charter. In such an event, the Ranger(s) in question would be expected to explain the circumstances and consult with the board membership as soon as possible. Such measures are temporary by their nature and subject to review by a Standing Committee for Charter Amendments.
This to me is one of the best things ever written in the Charter.

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:36 pm
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Lidless-

I agree. And I find it perplexing still, in that it's as close as we let our Rangers come to TORC-style modding. But then again, we don't expect our rangers to act like that as a norm...and we can call them on it if they screw up. Hell, sometimes we have to reassure them, as with TED's recent mea culpa, that we DON'T hold it against them that it didn't turn out as hoped.

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halplm
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:41 pm
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Is not every time a hearing is called a "special" occurance? Would that not require the rangers to exercise their judgment to see if a hearing is actually required or to perhaps realize that the person calling the hearing has an ulterior motive? Perhaps suggest to them that they persue the other avenues of dispute resolution if those could be beneficial, rather than simply rubber stamp the hearing and put someone through beaurocratic hell on a MESSAGEBOARD!

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:43 pm
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I'm having trouble sorting out, Hal, whether you want the Rangers to have any power. It honestly seems to me that you do want them to, if that power serves your purposes, but otherwise want their hands entirely tied. Can you clarify? :scratch:

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TheMary
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:44 pm
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In my opinion if someone is willing to go through the hasstle of a hearing they should have at least exhausted the other methods of dispute resolution first. Like using the BR first.

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:45 pm
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What are YOUR motives, hal? You can tell us, but we cannot KNOW. We cannot determine intent, only take people's words for it, and if that fails, guess at it...and guessing is not judgment.

But we can see results. And we can judge results.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:48 pm
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Lidless wrote:
Quote:
Recognizing that unforeseen events may occur which require a quick response, Board77 Rangers are expected to use their best judgment in emergencies, and to take whatever action they believe necessary to protect the board. An emergency would be an event which threatened real and immediate harm, but which is not otherwise addressed by this charter. In such an event, the Ranger(s) in question would be expected to explain the circumstances and consult with the board membership as soon as possible. Such measures are temporary by their nature and subject to review by a Standing Committee for Charter Amendments.
This to me is one of the best things ever written in the Charter.
I wrote that. :)


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halplm
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 6:59 pm
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Prim, I've been kind of running around in a circle trying to point out that the charter is so broad, that anyone can get what they want done, hold the charter up as a shield, and get away with it, IF THE RANGERS LET THEM.

The Rangers have power, should have power, and should excercise that power. Every time I've made a suggestion to a ranger about MY recent situation, the response has been "It's out of our hands, we don't have that power." Which may be true, and probably is true the way I read the charter.

HOWEVER, they put themselves in that position by not using their power at the appropriate time, or using it in an inappropriate way. I'm not blaming them, it's not easy and it's not like there's a lot of precidence.

What HAS happened though, and this is not just with the rangers, is that we've gotten SO CAUGHT UP in "What does the Charter say about this?" or "how can we interpret the charter here?" or "Is this section of the charter up for debate" or "Do we need to change this section too?" ALL OF WHICH is

TOTALLY IRRELEVANT

We need to look at what is happening, find the right solution, and use it. The charter was written to do that, not in a strict way, but as a reference so someone doesn't get out of hand.

Jnyusa TRIED to use it this way to settle everything down, but was tryign to do it without pissing anyone off TOO Much. I say she should have done what it would have taken to settle things down and if it pissed people off that was their problem.

MariaHobbit switched to having this point of view just recently, as did Holby, and I think that's fine, but I agreed with both of them that they should let things be early on.

The right thing to do, if people thought I was disrupting thing would have been to confine me to the bikeracks ALONG WITH ANYONE ELSE IN MY DISPUTE and make us figure it out, while the rest of you people got your board free of disruption back.

It didn't happen, and now we're in a big mess. Hindsight is 20-20, but useless if you don't use it and get lost in the mess in the meantime...

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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 7:37 pm
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Hal, this thread is supposed to help people in the jury room make proposals to the membership about dispute resolution particularly in respect to the Bike Rack conflict. Over the last couple of pages I have counted about 26 posts dealing with your thoughts about your hearing and people's responses to them and about 6 germane to the Jury Room. I have found it difficult working out your train of thought many times. You seem to be posting compulsively. I think it was this style of posting that led to your problem in the first place. I think your ideas about tolerance of other's opinions to help the board get along are very true but I must say that your style of posting is becoming oppressive. It is like being constantly poked with a stick. The trouble is that if someone's patience runs out and they explode and say hard words the damage is done. You have the right to express your opinion but please consider that there is serious bridge building being attempted and rein yourself back a little.

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 23 Nov , 2005 7:39 pm
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Tosh--
Thanks for reminding me that I was failing to observe my own request in the Jury Room. :)

Rangers--
It's that time again. Please move the material from the last 24 hours not related to the JRoom discussion to the Bike Racks.

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