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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 12:24 am
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In my experience, Hal, most people's opinion are a lot more inflexible than facts.

I'll take a fact any day over a bullheaded opinion.

Jn

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 12:27 am
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that makes no sense whatsoever.

facts do not change. Opinions may not change, but you simply must acknowledge when someone elses opinion is different.

By claiming your own opinion as fact, it's an inherent refusal to acknowledge other opinions.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 12:29 am
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Facts do change, Hal. They change as we acquire new information.

What does not change is the opinion of a defiant person in the face of facts.

Jn

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 12:35 am
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no, facts do NOT change. Situations change based on new facts.

You're completely missing the point. Claiming opinion is fact is ignorance. Refusing to compromise opinion is stubborness.

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jewelsong
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 12:51 am
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Last edited by jewelsong on Sat 10 Dec , 2005 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 12:54 am
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jewelsong wrote:
halplm wrote:
. Refusing to compromise opinion is stubborness.
For instance, an opinion about three very successful and well-made movies based on Tolkien's works?
LOL, my opinions on those movies has changed so much it's unbelievable. I've gone back and forth and over and under, and I have formulated an opinion very different than the one I started with and much more flexible.

I appreciate the idea in your post, of course.

We all have opinions we hold dear. And we are all stubborn about them. This is not a bad thing. What is unfortunate, is when in a social situation where people are asked to comprimise, we remain stubborn on opinions that are clashing.

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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 1:17 am
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halplm
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 1:20 am
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I've been willing to discuss with Cerin a common ground we might reach, or in fact, that there may not be common ground. I've been willing to go to the bikeracks, hash things out OFF the rest of the board, and even get a mediator if one is necessary, which I imagine it would be.

That's been the case since practially day one.

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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 1:28 am
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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 1:41 am
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Just a friendly suggestion that we leave this thread empty and fallow for 24 hours starting in about 4 hours. You know, so we (OK, at least those of us in the US) can celebrate a holiday where we concentrate on being grateful for what we have, as opposed to concentrating on individual and collective shortcomings?

Hmm?

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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 1:42 am
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Quote:
There were no rules broken. Fact.
The Bike Racks was used in a way not listed in the Charter as one of its uses.

Quote:
It was not out of fear that the occurence was not stopped. Fact.
I was told (in the course of one of the thread discussions here) that the thread was not moved because it was thought it would be too inflammatory to do so.

Quote:
The next step is The Bike Racks and a hearing.

I don't believe I have violated the by-laws. But if you feel I have, it is certainly your right to request a hearing. I wouldn't try to get in the way of due process for the board because I respect it. I think our rules are carefully crafted with an emphasis on fairness and treating everyone equally. So I don't fear them. I know no one can capriciously ban me, for instance. It is a comfort in times like these.


I was objecting to the characterization that the people who used the Bike Racks in a new way that was not listed in the Charter as one of the intended uses were the ones upholding the status quo, where the people who are defending the use of the Bike Racks as described in the Charter and in the way it has always been used, are the ones who are asking for accommodation. That is not true.


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halplm
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 2:00 pm
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I'm sorry Jnyusa, as much as you'd like the hearing to NOT be in progress so you can discuss it ad nausium in all places that please you, in case the jury MIGHT have missed your tampering in another forum, it IS in progress, and I object to everys single one of your insinuations and absurd amendments tothe charter to PISS ME OFF.


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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 24 Nov , 2005 11:20 pm
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Quote:
I do not think this is right. Just as a defendant at his own trial has the right not to testify I think a member here should be able to reserve the right not to testify. That is his or her choice to not offer his/her side of the issue. I believe the jury can and should continue on and make a ruling based on the evidence presented.
Resonding to Eru in the Jury Room. I agree that the Charter doesn't requires the person to speak in their defense, but I believe people should be required to attend. And we could compel that attendance by confining them to (?) until they agree.

In this case, I believe that halplm, by refusing to appear, has forfeited his right to defend himself. Since he has refused to respect an official proceeding, he should not be allowed to communicate about the hearing in any other way, or through other people, which means not discussing it in other threads or having other people give witness for him.

Edited for content.


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 25 Nov , 2005 12:49 am
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Cerin

You refused to go about things in a normal process as set up in the Charter. Bike racks negotitation with mediation was something you said you did not want to post in. And now Hal says he will not post during his hearing. Please explain to me the diffference between what you did and what he is doing, because it seems to me that you did the exact same thing.

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 25 Nov , 2005 1:01 am
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A comment to the committee.

It looks as though in the future a generic qualifier is going to have to be added to every amendment and should probably be added retroactively to every provision, to counteract the argument, which has now been made twice to my knowledge, that the described procedures aren't the only ones intended or allowed.

In other words, the Charter describes our hearing procedure and means, that procedure is the one that must be followed; it does not mean, that procedure is one among many other unnamed procedures that may be followed, or may not be. The argument is being made that what isn't described as disallowed in the hearing procedure (such as not attending or having someone speak for you) is allowed.

So in order to avoid alot of future trouble, perhaps an attempt should be made to pre-empt that argument.


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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 25 Nov , 2005 1:25 am
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Ara-anna

Participation in Bike Racks has always been voluntary.

A hearing is an official proceeding and I believe the assumed requirement was for those involved to appear (if only to say they choose not to speak in their defense).


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halplm
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Posted: Fri 25 Nov , 2005 3:52 am
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My desire not to post in the hearing is not a protest of my being in a hearing. It is an old protest of teh charter and hearing process in general.

I said a long time ago that I would not participate in hearings, either a an accusor, defendant, or juror. I don't believe in how it is set up, or how it is handled, or how most things in the charter are set up.

I'm sorry that that protest has gotten thrown into this whole mess and is confusing things.


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jewelsong
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Posted: Sat 10 Dec , 2005 2:11 pm
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