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Which do you want to have an opportunity to vote on first?

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Which would you like to vote on first?
Poll ended at Sun 04 Dec , 2005 9:24 pm
Option 1 (referred to as the rerouting proposal)
  
61% [ 14 ]
Option 2 (referred to as the tightening proposal)
  
39% [ 9 ]
Total votes: 23
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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 3:18 pm
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If nothing else, I am glad this thread has brought fresh input to the discussion.

And it is one more important piece of information to consider.

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TheMary
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 3:21 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Evidently the poll alone is showing there are people out there with an opinion, I guess I just want to see these people speak up for once.

Why I even bother I don't know.

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Fixer
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 3:21 pm
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I figured no one else was going to start it and I thought the data received would be relevant. I do not care for who I offend by asking honest questions or making honest statements. If people cannot handle honesty, it is best they not communicate with me.

I have no qualms with a certain select few calling me names or telling me I shouldn't have done something. Usually the people doing so are ones no one listens to anyway. I know what I am, and who I am, and anyone who attempts to claim I am otherwise I just get to laugh at.

:damnfunny: :damnfunny: :damnfunny: :damnfunny: :damnfunny: :damnfunny: :damnfunny: :damnfunny: :damnfunny:

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 3:23 pm
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Quote:
I know what I am, and who I am
Wasn't that Popeye's line? Or was it Yahweh? :D

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TheMary
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 3:27 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Popeye's line is "I am what I am and that's all that I am. I'm Popeye the sailor man!"

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Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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Fixer
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 3:28 pm
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Who?

The guy with the squint and the pipe? I was unaware his name was Yahweh. Had a penchant for spinach, if I recall.

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TheMary
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 3:30 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Popeye is the guy who digs spinich. Yahweh is God IIRC.....

_________________

Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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Cerin
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 3:50 pm
Thanks to Holby
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Who is calling you names, Fixer?

Yes, I disagree with your decision to start a straw poll, because I'm afraid it will be mistakenly used to justify eliminating one of the two main choices that have been discussed, from the ballot, and thereby turning this vote into a cause for dissatisfaction rather than resolution.

I certainly mean no personal offense by disagreeing with your approach and I certainly am not trying to claim you are something you are not. What on earth that would be, I couldn't even guess.


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Lidless
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 4:02 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 4:10 pm
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There will be no elimination. There may be a prioritization. I'm not entirely sold on sequential presentation yet, since I've been looking at the game theory and not liking a lot the possible results, in that they could quite easily not reflect the actual desire of the board.

Example:

50% of the people on the board prefer A. 40% prefer B. 10% prefer neither.

Assuming half of each of the first two groups would be OK with the other proposal, while half exclusively support theirs, it would appear that there should be enough support for A (70%) to pass it. But if A is put forward first, then B supporters who would prefer B but who are OK with A could decide to vote no in the hopes that B will come up, which is perfectly reasonable. Then we're left with 65% support for B, and nothing gets passed, even though only 10% of the people wanted that!

I think the problem of preference is better handled (short of a Faramond-style dissection) by simultaneously putting both forward with the stated rule:

If only one gets 67%, it is approved. Duh. :)

IF A and B both get 67%, there will be a runoff between them. This would be a simple majority runoff, as the 67% has already been acheived.

IF neither A nor B get 67%, nothing is approved.

And then telling people to vote for both independently, that is, if they want to vote yes on both, it's OK.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 5:01 pm
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Ax -

AT LAST A VOTING SCHEME I UNDERSTAND!

Sorry for shouting but I gotta tell you I have been lost, lost, lost trying to figure out how this vote would run exactly, and what the results would mean.

The formula you posted above is exactly right for getting a supermajority that reflects what people want.

There needs to be a second run-off if A and B together get 67%.

Jn

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Cerin
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 5:09 pm
Thanks to Holby
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Sorry to perpetuate an off topic, but noticing that list of links just above, I feel inspired to point out to anyone interested that I was dead set against straw polling for the ToE amendment and even offered to resign my position on the committee if the polling was pursued.

However, in the end I bowed to the will of the rest of the committee and put up the polls at the direct request of another repsected committee member, Estel. I believe it was subsequently proven what a poor idea the straw polling was. In my view it only created animosity and did not contributed in the slightest to the eventual result.

Of course, this is all available for review in the Threads of Historical interest if anyone is really interested in the truth.


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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 5:12 pm
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Cerin--
I put at least one up too. Not my proudest moment. :oops:

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In some cases, firing the drummer helps.


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Lidless
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 5:20 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Ax,

The score so far on straw polls, getting a feel, what ever you want to call it is, in geometric progression:

Cerin 8
Ax 4
Estel 2
Fixer 1

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 5:25 pm
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I think it unfair to pin the ToE polls on Cerin. A lot of people in the committee wanted them, and there was some pressure from outside the committee as well.

That said, I find it a supreme waste of time to rehash that discussion on all of our parts. We learned the hazards of polls. We learned what you can and can't tell from them. We especially learned about the law of diminishing returns about having more than one of them.

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In some cases, firing the drummer helps.


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Lidless
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 5:39 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Ax, the reason for so many was, IIRC, the committee had not decided on the wording - so several members of the committee felt the questions were ambiguous, slanted and not all-inclusive - which led to more polls by other committee members.

Also, the polls were put up in many forums, so the real number was lower. Though it did give people the chance to vote more than once on the same subject. :scratch:

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Fixer
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 6:51 pm
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All of you stop with the 'what are straw polls good for' and 'who has done who many straw polls' or I will ask for all the posts other than my first one to be deleted.

Thanks. :D

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The best measure of our accomplishments in life is not what goods we have accumulated or the recognition gained from actions we have performed, but what we leave for others who choose to follow the path we made for them.


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Cerin
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 7:36 pm
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Quote:
I think it unfair to pin the ToE polls on Cerin.
Ultimately, as leader of the committee I took and take responsibility for the polls and the fiasco they turned into. However, the polls were resorted to over my initial objections, not at my instigation.

As I said, such was my opposition to the idea of straw polling that I offered to resign my position on the committee when the suggestion to poll was put forward.


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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 8:03 pm
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And I talked you out of it, with others.

ANYWAY: can we leave this thread to other people who have an opinion for a while? **eyes the usual suspects, including himself**

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In some cases, firing the drummer helps.


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Impenitent
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Posted: Thu 01 Dec , 2005 12:11 am
Try to stay perky
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Pity that there isn't a third option on that poll, to whit, "I don't like either of two options and would vote no for both or either of them".

Personally, I do like one of the options, but if we had that third opt-out option it would present a clearer picture. As it is, those who don't agree with the two options can choose not to vote in this straw poll, but we cannot assume that the reason all 200-odd people who haven't voted chose not to vote because they disagree with both options.

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