board77

The Last Homely Site on the Web

Splitting threads

Post Reply   Page 2 of 2  [ 40 posts ]
Jump to page « 1 2
Author Message
halplm
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 9:58 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
the point is, rangers CAN edit posts, but by my count that has happened twice... out of extreme reluctance to do so.

I would argue that splitting and moving threads should have that extreme reluctance as well, even if it is more common.

If pages have gone off topic, that's one thing, but the last split moved 3 posts.


Top
Profile Quote
Axordil
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:06 pm
Not so deep as a well
Offline
 
Posts: 7360
Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 3:02 am
Location: In your wildest dreams
 
Well, it could well have moved more, and it almost did. But I asked Maria to be conservative. So blame me for the last one. Or most of them actually, since I've made suggestions for them all, just about, in the committee thread.

And which is worse, pruning a thread where there is a constant buildup before it gets bad, or waiting till there's 100 posts to wade through?

_________________

Destiny is a rhythm track on which we must improvise.

In some cases, firing the drummer helps.


Top
Profile Quote
Holbytla
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:06 pm
Grumpy cuz I can be
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 6642
Joined: Thu 09 Dec , 2004 3:07 am
 
Can we all not see how derailment can harm a thread?
Arguments? Spam? It isn't really difficult to understand. Stay on topic. If there is a subset of the topic then start another thread.
If you want to shit on someone then start another thread.

And for the record I have done nothing on a whim, nor do I believe any other ranger has.
There is a fine balance and everything has to be taken into consideration. Everything and everyone.
If I split posts it is because I have analyzed things and determined based on what I know that they needed to be split.
Once again all I have to go on is the charter and my judgment.
And it is a lot easier to be critical standing outside of the box.
Things are a lot different inside the box where you have to take the community as a whole into account. When you become involved in how this place should run and the actual running of the place.
When you can sit inside of your comfort zone and the only thing you have to worry about is your own opinion, things are different. Way different.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Primula_Baggins
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:10 pm
Living in hope
Offline
 
Posts: 7291
Joined: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
 
Good point, Holby.

Hal, splitting threads is part of a Ranger's routine powers. Rangers can do it as they judge appropriate to keep the forums running smoothly. Editing posts is in an entirely different category, emergency powers.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
halplm
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:15 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
the problem is, we can all tell when an idea has wandered off topic, but it's very difficult to figure out when, how, or why.

It's quite possible it actually IS on topic, it's just not obvious.

During the last two weeks we switched from being unwilling to act, to overly willing to act. This is no one's fault, and completely understandable. The thing is, it's most evident in the splitting, which is easy to do and completely within the duties of a ranger.

However, it can get to be too much. If you ask someont to split the thread, but be conservative, you're placing a value judgement on which posts were "really" off topic, and which were only "almost" off topic. This is where people can get suspicious of motivations, and question why their stuff was split off but others wasn't.

Maybe it's just me and I'm overly sensative to this right now, but I always seem to be in the discussion when things get split off, and it's never split how I would expect it to be split, either too much is taken off or not enough... which just shows that it's an entirely objective and confusing thing to do.

I guess my only recommendation without much more thought is to be more reluctant to both ask for and do a split. I mean, that thread was started over JUST because splitting it was getting to hard... that sets off alarm bells to me... it's like we're LOOKING for the next chance to split someone's post off for not "staying in line."


Top
Profile Quote
halplm
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:18 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
Primula_Baggins wrote:
Good point, Holby.

Hal, splitting threads is part of a Ranger's routine powers. Rangers can do it as they judge appropriate to keep the forums running smoothly. Editing posts is in an entirely different category, emergency powers.
They have them as a routine power yes, but they've been used recently more as an emergency power. Restore order and such. It's not the same function. It's like I said... it's easier to do. It's a type modding that we have that you don't have to jump through hoops for.

Yeah, I said modding, but I didnt' mean it negatively.


Top
Profile Quote
Primula_Baggins
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:18 pm
Living in hope
Offline
 
Posts: 7291
Joined: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
 
Well, as I said, it's a matter of judgment. If the threadstarteer wants a thread split, it will be split. If a Ranger judges it's necessary to keep a thread coherent, it will be split. If you were a Ranger, you might make different choices than I would, and both of us different from Holby.

The point is that judgment has to be exercised. Either that or an explicit rule has to be drawn up governing every single point. We deliberately didn't do that. As a result, judgment calls get made. <shrug>

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Holbytla
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:20 pm
Grumpy cuz I can be
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 6642
Joined: Thu 09 Dec , 2004 3:07 am
 
Quote:
During the last two weeks we switched from being unwilling to act, to overly willing to act.
Do you think that maybe there are other factors that have played a part in this over the last two weeks?


Quote:
Maybe it's just me and I'm overly sensative to this right now, but I always seem to be in the discussion when things get split off,
Maybe because you have been at the forefront of the other factors?


Come on man. There has been tons of contention here the last 2 weeks so of course there will be more splitting of threads.
Since you have been one of the more vocal participants it would stand to reason that you would be more likely to be involved in the splits.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Axordil
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:20 pm
Not so deep as a well
Offline
 
Posts: 7360
Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 3:02 am
Location: In your wildest dreams
 
Quote:
it's never split how I would expect it to be split, either too much is taken off or not enough... which just shows that it's an entirely objective and confusing thing to do.
I assume you meant subjective...and yes, it often is subjective. I know when I ask for splits I try not to take too careful note of who is speaking, only of what is being said, but I make no pretensions to sainthood. To be honest, the main reason things got split where they did last time is because the post I was going to suggest the split to start at got edited out by the poster, which changed the dynamic of the next several posts. That, and TP volunteered to have hers split. :D

The real problems are posts that are partially on topic, and partially off, because they tend to engender digressions without being part of them themselves.

_________________

Destiny is a rhythm track on which we must improvise.

In some cases, firing the drummer helps.


Top
Profile Quote
halplm
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:27 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
yes, I did mean subjective.

To simplify the concept a bit... I see a danger in the splitting of threads being used in a punitive capacity, when that is not their function. That is, "if you can't stay on topic, I'm moving your posts." The charter is built to prevent this from happening with edits or deletions, but not splits. The burden of proving something is "not on topic" is very small and not exactly a good indicator that something needs to be moved.

There are hundreds and hundreds of off topic posts on the board, and we selectively choose which threads are important enough to be required to stay "on topic" That is a dangerous place to go.

Its intention is a "cleanup" tool. That is, after things get messed up, a thread is "cleaned up." It's being used as a disruptive tool... "before things get out of hand, lets end that line of discussion."


Top
Profile Quote
Holbytla
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:34 pm
Grumpy cuz I can be
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 6642
Joined: Thu 09 Dec , 2004 3:07 am
 
There have been many complaints across the boards, and dating back further than two weeks, about thread derailment.
Seems to me like people are growing tired of threads derailing.

Contentious arguing has been overly abundant around here lately.
There have been many complaints about that.

Two choices. Let things continue to burn, derail or whatever or *snip*.

Hal I am all for hearing you proposals as to how this board should operate.
Please right them down and share them.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Primula_Baggins
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:34 pm
Living in hope
Offline
 
Posts: 7291
Joined: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
 
Well, Hal, if it disturbs you that much, start a committee! :)

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
halplm
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:39 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
Ah, Prim, that's funny, really.

I'm just trying to point out a problem I'm noticing. I'm not saying anything needs to change in the charter. I'm just saying I think the concept of splitting posts has gotten a little gung ho given everything that's gone on.

I'm not for more rules or restrictions, I'm for moderation in moderating.


Top
Profile Quote
Lidless
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:55 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
Offline
 
Posts: 8261
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 8:21 pm
Location: London
 
With all the splitting of hairs, I would have thought a splitting of threads was a natural progression.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:58 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5168
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
What do you know of splitting hairs?

:Wooper:


Top
Profile Quote
Lidless
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 10:59 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
Offline
 
Posts: 8261
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 8:21 pm
Location: London
 
My memory is long.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
halplm
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 11:00 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
Speaking of posts that should be split off...



















(I'm kidding :P)


Top
Profile Quote
Holbytla
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 30 Nov , 2005 11:00 pm
Grumpy cuz I can be
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 6642
Joined: Thu 09 Dec , 2004 3:07 am
 
Hal would you like me to split off the last 3 posts?
Please!!!! =:)

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject:
Posted: Thu 01 Dec , 2005 8:41 am
Filthy darwinian hobbit
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 6921
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 12:52 pm
Location: Silly Suffolk
 
The only thread that I think has to keep on target at the moment is the amendment thread. Its function is to shadow the Jury room discussion and is an enormously useful way of letting a few people do the real hard work and also letting the rest of the membership contribute. Some of us have only a limited time available and to have to refer to the amendment thread to keep up only to have to wade through scores of off topic posts, often being used to criticize an individual is very vexing. I have asked posters before to rein themselves in but have limited my request to the posters themselves, not the Rangers. I didn't notice any change of behaviour by the way.
The Rangers have powers that after a lot of discussion we granted them. Whether or not I have agreed with any particular decision I am heartily glad they have exercised those powers recently. Holby has it right. There is a difference when you are thinking about the whole board than when you are thinking within the comfort of your own opinion.

_________________

[ img ]
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos

Norwich Beer Festival 2009


Top
Profile Quote
Pippin4242
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 04 Dec , 2005 5:20 pm
Hasta la victoria, siempre
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sun 13 Mar , 2005 7:49 pm
Location: Outer Heaven
 
'Derailment' is natural progression of conversation as it would appear in real life. Nobody is stopping anybody from posting 'on topic', and, as I believe has already been mentioned, and as I came in to say, spam is entirely subjective.

*~Pips~*

P.S. Just noticed- Mine and Tosh's posts come in after some lighter ones. Do I give a shit? Do I think it devalues the validity of our serious posts?

_________________

Avatar is a male me, drawn by a very close friend. Just don't ask why.


Top
Profile Quote
Display: Sort by: Direction:
Post Reply   Page 2 of 2  [ 40 posts ]
Return to “Business Room” | Jump to page « 1 2
Jump to: