board77

The Last Homely Site on the Web

Continued: Charter Amendment Committee

Locked   Page 6 of 6  [ 120 posts ]
Jump to page « 1 2 3 4 5 6
Author Message
Primula_Baggins
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 6:13 pm
Living in hope
Offline
 
Posts: 7291
Joined: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
 
Will people please address their comments on the committee's discussion to the committee rather than to each other? Tosh, the points you want to the committee to consider should really be addressed to them, not Cerin. If this side argument goes one post farther, I will feel forced to split it to the BikeRacks. We cannot afford to reignite a potentially boardwide dispute. PLEASE.

Alternatively, if people in this discussion want it moved to the BikeRacks now, I will do so.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile
TheMary
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 6:14 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 7067
Joined: Mon 27 Jun , 2005 3:44 pm
Location: On my tush!
 
Tosh I personally will do my best to make sure the rerouting prosoal isn't scrapped :)

And bless you for pointing out what hal has been trying to point out for weeks. :)

_________________

Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


Top
Profile
Jnyusa
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 6:17 pm
One of the Bronte Sisters
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5107
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 8:54 am
Location: In Situ
 
Tosh: I'm sorry that I did not see your answer to my question. You answered too fast! :D

...an informal Bike Racks that was used at the judgement of the members (without the board interfering) and another formal forum under the control of the Rangers ...

I think there is a misunderstanding here about how the board actually functions. First of all, the members are the board, so it doesn't make sense to talk about the members doing something without the board interfering. It is not 'the board' that interferes as some independent entity but rather different members disagree with one another as to how things should be done. Ideally we would do that through rational discussion of our options.

ALL the forums are under the formal control of the Rangers. There are no exceptions to this. I can move any thread anywhere at any time if I feel it interferes with the coherence of a the forum. Even in the ToE I can do this. Any Ranger can.

If we state explicitly that the Bike Racks rules are not to be too strict by adding language to that effect, OR if we simply fail to ratify any increased strictness in the current rules, the situation in the Bike Racks will be exactly the same. It will still be under the formal control of the Rangers. You do not eliminate Ranger control by specifying that lighthearted threads can be allowed. If there are ten Turf-like threads in the Bike Racks, I can assure you that Rangers will start moving them to preserve the coherence of the forum, even under more relaxed constraints.

The purpose of the Bike Racks is to resolve disputes. It ceases to be coherent if it is used consistently for some other purpose. I am confident that 'reasonable use' will be the criterion employed by the Rangers no matter how we word the Charter.

If we make the rule concerning the Bike Racks very strict, then Rangers will be obligated to move non-conforming threads, and that would be the only difference in their 'control.'

How does anyone know what would be given an unambiguous majority?

Certain voting forms produce certain results. Only yes/no votes are able to yield a supermajority of 67%. No other voting form will guarantee this.
I do not think it is to our advantage right now to offer a ballot with strong potential to produce a 51-49% split.

Jn


Top
Profile
ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 6:35 pm
Filthy darwinian hobbit
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 6921
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 12:52 pm
Location: Silly Suffolk
 
Sorry Prim. I didn't know where to respond. Split if you want but I hope it doesn't provoke a long correspondence.

Jny, I simply meant a forum that didn't require permission to enter. I know that Rangers can and should cover the whole board. Too many formal requirements militate against an informal use - I don't mean light hearted - I mean spontaneous and low key. A formal forum with 'rules' ups the stakes and that might not suit everyone.
I'm not very comfortable with the idea that a solution that has been proposed and supported by several people and that has been worked up quite well in committee will not be put forward for a vote, especially as it satisfies the needs of people from both sides of the debate. We might end up with a decision where one side effectively says you will have it our way only. It might be quicker and simpler but may not be healthier.

_________________

[ img ]
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos

Norwich Beer Festival 2009


Top
Profile
halplm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 7:08 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
My interjections are often viewed as unhelpful, but that's never stopped me before ;)

_________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


Top
Profile
Primula_Baggins
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 7:12 pm
Living in hope
Offline
 
Posts: 7291
Joined: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
 
Be generous and let it stop you now, then. Please.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile
Jnyusa
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 7:30 pm
One of the Bronte Sisters
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5107
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 8:54 am
Location: In Situ
 
Tosh: A formal forum with 'rules' ups the stakes and that might not suit everyone.

Yes, I agree. It is not clear to me that I will vote in favor of this amendment. I probably will not.

What I am trying to achieve in presenting the vote this way is a situation in which the will of those who do not want the forum rules enforced more strictly can be expressed as clearly and unambiguously by voting "no" as would the will of those who do want stricter rules.

In fact, only 34% of the members have to vote "no" and the forum will remain relaxed as it is now.

I have to keep reminding people that the Rangers did NOT move the thread because it was NOT clearly a violation of the charter under current wording. (Ten threads like that would be a different matter.)

When we present two options simultaneously for tightening or relaxing the rules, and then 'no' is the third option, it will not be nearly so clear what the membership wants. Besides the fact that the charter really does specify that ratification votes should not be done this way. I think we can see now why. Changing the charter is not something that you want the membership split on 50/50. There should be a clear will to have the rules one way or another.

Jn


Top
Profile
ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 7:38 pm
Filthy darwinian hobbit
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 6921
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 12:52 pm
Location: Silly Suffolk
 
I think I see but it still leaves one opinion satisfied and the other frustrated. I mean if I voted no and that vote succeeded then others would not have a solution to their problem.
I want to satisfy Cerin's needs as well as my own.

:suspicious:
Don't even go there!
:D

(That was not an invitation to spam)

_________________

[ img ]
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos

Norwich Beer Festival 2009


Top
Profile
Tinsel_the_Elf
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 7:41 pm
* trolley dodger *
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 723
Joined: Mon 27 Jun , 2005 3:27 am
Location: Fighting the Long Defeat
 
(I don't know if this is helpful to contribute or not, but I'm leaning towards Jn's corner on this one. While I just voted to present the membership with one amendment, I'm also not so sure that I will vote 'yes' on either.)

_________________

Omnia Vincit Amor; Et Nos Cedamus Amori

Need a Laugh? Generate a Laugh!
[ img ]
LOTR Caption Competition #24--->Sauron Gives Isildur the Finger.


Top
Profile
TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 7:50 pm
Insolent Pup
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5381
Joined: Wed 09 Mar , 2005 8:31 pm
Location: Many Places
 
How close are we to having an amendment proposed, by the way? I'm just curious.

****

Thanks yova.

_________________

The 11/3 Project


Top
Profile
Jnyusa
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 8:34 pm
One of the Bronte Sisters
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5107
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 8:54 am
Location: In Situ
 
Tosh: want to satisfy Cerin's needs as well as my own.

That's generous of you Tosh, but democracy rarely works that way. I've said this before and I guess I'll say it again: what democracy requires is not people who are willing to hold elections but people who are willing to lose elections and remain within the system.

For ratification votes we really do need an unambiguous directive from the membership. And meanwhile, none of us knows how the members will actually vote. It might be that a supermajority really does want to keep the Bike Racks clean of extraneous threads.

But even if they don't, as a practical matter, if there were some 'fun' going on in the Bike Racks and a serious dispute had to enter, and those in the serious dispute objected to the other thread, I'm sure the Rangers would move the non-conforming thread. That is just common sense. The primary purpose of the forum would trump any secondary purpose.

Jn

Last edited by Jnyusa on Wed 07 Dec , 2005 6:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

_________________

"All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."
Epigraph on the tombstone of W.C. Fields.


Top
Profile
TheMary
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 9:03 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 7067
Joined: Mon 27 Jun , 2005 3:44 pm
Location: On my tush!
 
Quote:
That's generous of you Tosh, but democracy rarely works that way. I've said this before and I guess I'll say it again: what democracy requires is not people who are willing to hold elections but people who are willing to lose elections and remain within the system.
It's not so much about being willing to lose as it is about being willing to let the other person win, and I'm not willing to let the other person win. So I guess I'm not for democracy. I've already lost too much so losing another "election" really isn't an option.

_________________

Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


Top
Profile
Jnyusa
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 9:12 pm
One of the Bronte Sisters
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5107
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 8:54 am
Location: In Situ
 
TED: I'm sorry I skipped over your question before.

We've got a poll going in the jury room to approve the ballot. If that does not change significantly or provoke considerable controversy, the poll will run for 48 hours and then we will begin the ratification thread here in the business room.

TheMary: ... and I'm not willing to let the other person win. So I guess I'm not for democracy.

Well, the other 'person' would not be one person, Mary, it would be 67% of the entire membership. If you would truly feel that your will should prevail in spite of the fact that 67% of the members feel differently, then no, you are not for democracy. :)

Jn


Top
Profile
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 10:01 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5170
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
Or at least 67% of those who care enough to vote. :)


Top
Profile
Cerin
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 10:39 pm
Thanks to Holby
Offline
 
Posts: 2039
Joined: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:02 pm
 
Regarding the ballot in the Jury Room:
Quote:
• restricting posters who have provided invalid email addresses.
Was it determined that this provision is now obsolete? If so, can it be indicated that it will be removed from the text?


Top
Profile
Jnyusa
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 06 Dec , 2005 11:48 pm
One of the Bronte Sisters
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5107
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 8:54 am
Location: In Situ
 
Yes, you're right Cerin. We don't need that under the current group permission system.

Jn


Top
Profile
Lidless
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 07 Dec , 2005 1:56 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
Offline
 
Posts: 8261
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 8:21 pm
Location: London
 
*Looks forward more and more to helping to unravel all this red tape early next year.*

*Very early next year.*

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile
TheMary
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 07 Dec , 2005 1:58 am
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 7067
Joined: Mon 27 Jun , 2005 3:44 pm
Location: On my tush!
 
*Looks forward to wearing the red tape very early next year*


Top
Profile
TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 07 Dec , 2005 2:03 am
Insolent Pup
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5381
Joined: Wed 09 Mar , 2005 8:31 pm
Location: Many Places
 
*Looks forward to the end of this year*

Thanks for answering me, Jn.

_________________

The 11/3 Project


Top
Profile
Jnyusa
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 07 Dec , 2005 7:28 pm
One of the Bronte Sisters
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5107
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 8:54 am
Location: In Situ
 
I am going to unsticky and lock this thread now, as the Ratification thread has been posted. Continued discussion of the ballot should take place in that thread.

Thanks!

Jn

_________________

"All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."
Epigraph on the tombstone of W.C. Fields.


Top
Profile
Display: Sort by: Direction:
Locked   Page 6 of 6  [ 120 posts ]
Return to “Business Room” | Jump to page « 1 2 3 4 5 6
Jump to: