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Simplification Committee Comment Thread 2

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Fixer
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 5:39 pm
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My biggest concern with Rangers choosing their own successors is the problem of nepotism. Should enough Rangers become drunk on their own power (not likely under the current set, but a possibility serious enough to address) they would be able to form an oligarchy of their own without having a third party who cannot be a Ranger (such as the Mayor) saying whose turn it is to be a Ranger next. If a Ranger is able to convince 3 or 4 friends next in line that when their term as a Ranger comes up they will automatically resign and choose them as successor that creates a potential for abuse.

Side Note:

If you are going to move powers between articles the suggestions to move given powers must be considered all at once in documentation. To simply remove it from one to 'add it somewhere else later' is inappropriate procedure. Both articles should be addressed simultaneously and rearranged at the same time in order to prevent any responsiblity from becoming undelegated for any period of time.

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 6:04 pm
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Fixer, I'm afraid I don't see how that would happen. An oligarchy of Rangers on b77? Really? :suspicious: It's not choosing a successor. I can't say "I want Poster Q to take over for me." or something. It's looking at the list, seeing who's next, and saying "Hey, can you Ranger next term?"
I just don't see it happening. Besides, what can Rangers really do? Lock a thread. Change ranks. Oh No! :Q I could take over the board and change everyone's rank! Now that is scary.

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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 6:11 pm
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Nah, I trust you'd pick out a great rank for me Mossy :D

I see both Fixer and Mossy's points. Yes, someone could try to abuse the Ranger pool, but I would prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. And I think if abuse happened a lot of damage could happen to the board, more so than changing ranks and locking threads.

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 6:26 pm
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They could do more -- I exaggerated. But I just don't see that as a danger. It's not like the Rangers are permanent fixtures. Three months, and they're done. There are only so many things we can guard against. We bicker and squabble, but in general (I hope) we get along, and it's a small group. We should we not do this one thing to make Eru's life a bit easier?

(TM, of course, if I took over the board the extent of it would be giving everyone ranks from Broadway lyrics. =:) BWAHAHAHA. )

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 10:17 pm
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TED: addressing a few things I said I would address, then I'll be out of town for about ten days starting Sunday.

1. I looked throught the existing A.4 and your simplification and it doesn't look to me as if anything critical is missing. Couple questions:

a. You removed the right of Mayor to ask for an assistant. Is this only because you don't think it's necessary to say it in the Charter or because you don't want there to be mayorial assistants?

b. "Immediate bans, and their appeal dates"

Immediate bans don't have appeal dates. An appeal is something different. The current wording should probably remain unchanged: ~ "Immediate bans and the date when they become eligible for reversal."

2. El is right that your committee is a rotation and not a new committee. In my opinion, you do have the right to undertake simplifications .... howver ... this rotation was formed with the understanding that simplifications would be done second, and that the committee would be rotated again before beginning them. It might be that people were 'saving themselves' for the job that interested them more, so as a matter of courtesy it is probably a good idea to ask if anyone else wants to join the committee before you start working on the big stuff, A.5 and A.3

3. Lurker and Fixer commented as follows: If we delegate the task of scheduling rangers among themselves does these mean that task scheduling will be handed over to another person every three months, and My biggest concern with Rangers choosing their own successors is the problem of nepotism.

Perhaps I am the one who is misunderstanding Eru's request, but I did not think that the selection process was going to change, only that Eru would delegate the responsibility for sending out the PMs until a sufficient number of confirmations was received.

That would mean that, yes, it would be delegated to a different person every time it happened - whoever the current Ranger was. But new Rangers would still have to be contacted and put into office in the order in which their name appears on the list.

I have not changed my mind that this does not require a charter amendment, because Eru has also fufilled her duty when she delegates the responsibility for it and her delegate completes the task. But I don't object to changing the charter to reflect a different practice.

OK - good luck, people. And thank you for the energy and thought you are giving to this.

Jn

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Elian
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 11:13 pm
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Fixer wrote:
If you are going to move powers between articles the suggestions to move given powers must be considered all at once in documentation. To simply remove it from one to 'add it somewhere else later' is inappropriate procedure. Both articles should be addressed simultaneously and rearranged at the same time in order to prevent any responsiblity from becoming undelegated for any period of time.
A fair enough point, but as in this case 'later' means a few days rather than 'an entirely new committee forming' I don't think it's likely to be a problem, though we do have to make sure that both the revised Mayor and Ranger Articles get voted on at the same time, in order to prevent such a thing from occuring.

Edit: Well okay, it might be after a new committee forms, but in that case, if we simply hold over the voting on the revised Mayor Article until the Ranger Article is ready to be voted on as well, we'll be good, right? Since it will technically be the same committee, just in a possibly rotated form...

My side note: If one is truly worried about Rangers choosing their own replacement, we could make it a requirement that all other current Rangers must approve the outgoing Ranger's choice of replacement. Would that calm those worries any?

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Sat 14 Jan , 2006 7:26 pm
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Fixer wrote:
If you are going to move powers between articles the suggestions to move given powers must be considered all at once in documentation. To simply remove it from one to 'add it somewhere else later' is inappropriate procedure. Both articles should be addressed simultaneously and rearranged at the same time in order to prevent any responsiblity from becoming undelegated for any period of time.
Can't happen yet since the nothing is up for a vote, so effectively nothing has been changed.
Jnyusa wrote:
Immediate bans don't have appeal dates. An appeal is something different. The current wording should probably remain unchanged: ~ "Immediate bans and the date when they become eligible for reversal."
My mistake. I'll correct it. Thanks
Jnyusa wrote:
It might be that people were 'saving themselves' for the job that interested them more, so as a matter of courtesy it is probably a good idea to ask if anyone else wants to join the committee before you start working on the big stuff, A.5 and A.3
I didn't realize this. Okay, then, here it is: if anyone would like to join the committee, it is open. If anyone would like to leave, you may do so now if you like. I'll keep the committee "open" for five days for people to decide. In five days, I'll "close" the committee. I'm staying on. Any current members who are staying on may tell me so, but it is not imperative (only if you leave).

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Fixer
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Posted: Tue 17 Jan , 2006 1:36 pm
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MaidenOfTheShieldarm wrote:
Fixer, I'm afraid I don't see how that would happen. An oligarchy of Rangers on b77? Really? :suspicious: It's not choosing a successor. I can't say "I want Poster Q to take over for me." or something. It's looking at the list, seeing who's next, and saying "Hey, can you Ranger next term?"
As long as the order of the list is maintained I can agree to allowing a Ranger to inform their successor of their term of service, but the order of the list must remain preserved in statute (with the already-present allowance for Rangers announcing their being unavailable being rolled down the list).
Jnyusa wrote:
TED: addressing a few things I said I would address, then I'll be out of town for about ten days starting Sunday.

1. I looked throught the existing A.4 and your simplification and it doesn't look to me as if anything critical is missing. Couple questions:

a. You removed the right of Mayor to ask for an assistant. Is this only because you don't think it's necessary to say it in the Charter or because you don't want there to be mayorial assistants?
Not speaking for TED, but for my own position if someone acting as Mayor wants an assistant, the Mayor would simply need to give them access to the Mayor account. This does not need to be in statute because, should the Mayor desire for it to be so, it would become so. Requiring the Mayor not disclose the password is nigh unenforcable.
Jnyusa wrote:
I have not changed my mind that this does not require a charter amendment, because Eru has also fufilled her duty when she delegates the responsibility for it and her delegate completes the task. But I don't object to changing the charter to reflect a different practice.
Bears repeating.
TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
Fixer wrote:
If you are going to move powers between articles the suggestions to move given powers must be considered all at once in documentation. To simply remove it from one to 'add it somewhere else later' is inappropriate procedure. Both articles should be addressed simultaneously and rearranged at the same time in order to prevent any responsiblity from becoming undelegated for any period of time.
Can't happen yet since the nothing is up for a vote, so effectively nothing has been changed.
I realized this after I had had a good night's sleep on the matter. However, *IF* the individual articles are brought to a vote separately (as some have requested) I want to make certain that responsibilities shifted from one article to the next are voted upon simultaneously to prevent lapses in coverage.


With regards to my participation in committee, my shifting of attention from online to offline requires I spend less time near a computer when not at work. As long as folks don't mind my only participating during the workweek, I will continue to act in my role.

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TheMary
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Posted: Tue 17 Jan , 2006 1:53 pm
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TED, I really hate to do this but I have to jump ship on the committee I have more pressing matters to attend to in RL and don't want to slow it down or use up a spot on the committee when I can't put all my effort forward.

Good Luck Everyone :)

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halplm
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Posted: Tue 17 Jan , 2006 8:05 pm
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I think I've made my opinions well known. The only thing I will be doing any more with the committee is basically agree with what T.E.D. and Elian propose... so I'm not sure if there's any value to me staying on. If people want me to stay, I will, but I doube I will have anythign constructive to say at this point.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue 17 Jan , 2006 10:51 pm
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Sorry to have you go, TM, but get your RL stuff straightened out. Hal, you stay if you want, I'm not telling you whether you should stick it out or not.

Sorry for the delay in the committee proceedings, I've had a busy few days. Jny, I'm sorry I haven't responded to you, I'll respond soon.

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Fixer
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Posted: Fri 20 Jan , 2006 1:25 pm
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TED

What happened to the committee?

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Sat 21 Jan , 2006 4:53 pm
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Working a lot for Mike. Sorry. It's still going. We also need more members, I think. Mumpy and Liddy are having RL issues that eat up much of their time from what I remember, TM left, you seem very busy, too, fix (understandably-- congrats btw). It's just me, hal and el at the moment.

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Fixer
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Posted: Sat 21 Jan , 2006 9:08 pm
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Hey, I am still around. I just only get online a few times a day.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 27 Jan , 2006 8:02 pm
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The deletion proposal is up. Read, comment, discuss, argue, complain, suggest, inquire, etc.

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Fixer
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Posted: Mon 30 Jan , 2006 12:48 pm
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I think the fact you didn't START a new thread is causing some people to not really pay attention.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Mon 30 Jan , 2006 1:38 pm
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I didn't start a new thread? What do you mean? There is a new thread called Deletion proposal: discussion.

Click here

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Fixer
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Posted: Tue 31 Jan , 2006 3:30 pm
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Oh, I was looking for a sticky or a Ranger announcement or something.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue 31 Jan , 2006 5:37 pm
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Understandable. If a ranger is around, could you sticky that thread titled Deletion....?

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