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Simplification Committee Comment Thread 2

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Thu 12 Jan , 2006 6:33 am
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As I said before, I think the voting should be in pieces: not one vote per section/article, but perhpaps one for outright deletions, one for simplifications/paring down, and one for changes to articles (ie, adding scheduling of Ranger terms to Ranger duties).

The simplified mayor article looks good, although obviously Eru knows a lot more about that than I. The one thing I have to say is that I have never liked the idea of a year long term, simply because that is a long time on the internet. I know that would throw off the election schedule, but perhaps a six month term instead?

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 12 Jan , 2006 6:38 am
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Mossy, I like that idea for voting. I'm going to take tomorrow to figure out it's practicality.

As for changing the mayor's term, that is outside of the scope of this committee as fixer pointed out in the jury thread. Deletions, simplifications as well as moving (I'm pretty sure) are all acceptable since they don't change any functions within the charter.

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Elian
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Posted: Thu 12 Jan , 2006 6:40 am
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That kind of voting schedule seems doable to me, Mossy. :)

As for the Mayor term, I do feel bad because I know Eru wanted that changed as well, but I do agree with TED that it's a bit outside this committee's scope; however, if there seems to be a consensus towards changing it now (and, obviously, no outright objections) I'd have no problem with that.

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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Thu 12 Jan , 2006 8:58 am
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Do we need a mayor? Can the functions be carried out by Loremasters or Loremasters and Rangers in a way that they decide between themselves?

This is a big job. It has to be handled in chunks and I can't see a way that avoids it dragging on for a long time. The membership and committees will have to accept that for the immediate future it will be an ongoing project. The more low key it is then the better. I am happy to vote every fortnight or so on the latest bit that the committee suggests is dropped or simplified or changed. Mostly I expect I will be voting yes but I will be keeping an eye out for any babies floating past.

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Fixer
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Posted: Thu 12 Jan , 2006 3:32 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
One of the last statements that Holby made in the past few days was that as a Ranger he could not bring himself to 'moderate' his friends. I believe that is probably true of most members. They are happy to do the routine work of Rangers but they do not want to be in the position of telling their friends what to do, and especially not having to rebuke them. So the idea that Rangers might be enforcers of any sort is probably not going to work for us.

...it is plain to me that our members are not able, emotionally, to serve as judges over one another or to submit to the judgment of their peers without rancor. Our whole dispute system relies on this ability which does not exist and therefore I don't believe that much of it can be saved. This is one area where completely new ideas and new approaches are needed.
I was going to hold off on suggesting this until AFTER the simplifaction process was complete, but I have an idea on the whole Jury process.

Rangers are the arms of this board, but remove from them the requirement of making emotional or difficult decisions. Create a set of individuals (voluntary, of course) who agree to act as Judges. They should be individuals who publicly vow to make decisions based on the Charter in the best interest of B77. They will not have any administrative authority at all (can't edit posts, reach the Admin panel, nothing). The only purpose they would serve is to act to make difficult decisions relating to the continuance of B77. Rangers act as a set of balances to 'moderate' the Judges because while the Judges might make the decisions, but the Rangers carry them out. A person cannot be a Judge and a Ranger at the same time.

In this manner, Rangers are removed from having to make difficult decisions over their friends. Judges (instead of the Mayor and Loremaster) can be required to be on any given committee that is formed to maintain that actions are kept in compliance to Charter.

The current 'complaint' process would remain. A single user with any Ranger's endorsement, or any three users, can bring a complaint to a Judge to request a decision. The Judge can make any requests for information they feel they may require to render a decision and, ultimately, make a judgement. If the defending party believes the judgement unfair, they can appeal to a Jury. If a Jury decides to change a Judge's decision then the Jury's decision supercedes the Judge's. If the plaintiff believes the judgement unfair, they must start the process all over again and provide new evidence.

Judges are not likely to be real popular, but they CAN recuse themselves from a given decision if they feel they are too emotionally attached. Given the decisions would be made by a single individual, the process will be a LOT faster than the current Jury process. Also given that decisions would be made by a single individual, the checks/balances of appeal to a Jury is important. The final check/balance is that a Judge does not have the power to enforce their own decisions.

In the event a Judge is considered unfit to perform their duties, the Rangers can vote to remove someone from the Judge pool. That removal will be immediate and remain until the Rangers vote them back in (should the individual wish to become a Judge again).

Given that I will be going on my Internet Retirement after these rounds of modifications to the Charter are complete, I will volunteer to be in this group (even Rodia knows I'll rule against her if I think she's out of line) as a backup Judge, should no other wish to take a given case for personal reasons.

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Rodia
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Posted: Thu 12 Jan , 2006 3:59 pm
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I heard that. :x

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Fixer
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Posted: Thu 12 Jan , 2006 6:07 pm
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Yes, and you wouldn't have me any other way. :P

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Lurker
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Posted: Thu 12 Jan , 2006 11:54 pm
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I don't have much internet time right now but I was reading the Charter simplication in the Jury room and I think you guys are doing a great job! Keep it up!

Fixer wrote:
Quote:
I do *NOT* suggest changing the position or responsibilites of Mayor in this committee. That requires alteration, not simplifaction. I agree with Eru that the Mayoral position does need a reexamination but I would ask that another committee, AFTER this one, be convened by interested persons to consider that topic and perhaps the jury process.
As a Loremaster, I just want to say that I second Fixer's comment with regards to the commitee simplifying the charter only and not make changes with regards to the roles of the Mayor at this point since the committee was formed to simplify not make changes. Another committe shld. be formed to look into changing the mayoral duties.

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 12:25 am
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The only thing I want changed is for Rangers to schedule Ranger terms instead of the Mayor doing it...rangers finding their own replacement.

That is the only change. How hard is that?

The rest is simplification, as in deleting some unneeded stuff.

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Lurker
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 12:51 am
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I apologize Eru. No need to get upset, please. :)

I thought you would like somebody to actually "look into" the mayoral role/duties. :blackeye: I wasn't here yet when you guys drew up the charter. I did read the charter. I would have loved to volunteer but my internet time is limited, swamped with RL activities.

Then I think it's okay, to delegate that task to the rangers since the committee is simplifying, which also means simplifying the role of the mayor. Why the heck was the mayor asked to this in the first place when it is perfectly clear IMHO, that it should be an "outgoing ranger" doing this. :scratch: You know governing their own ranks.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 1:08 am
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Eru what you are requesting is fairly easily accomplished.
As Mayor, you can request an amendment to the charter.
I would be happy to head that committee as a former Ranger.
Here is the article.

¶2: Amendments to the Charter
Ratified by the membership August 8, 2005

A committee to Amend the Charter can be convened under three circumstances:
• A Ranger has exercised Extraordinary powers requiring review in accordance with Article 3, ¶5. The committee will decide whether the circumstance is anticipated to occur again with sufficient frequency to justify an Amendment to the Charter;
• An Initiative to amend the Charter is brought by the Mayor, or by two current Rangers, or by five members regardless of their status;
• The quorum as calculated from a moving average falls below 20% and the board must reconsider participation requirements for Binding Votes and ratification of Charter Amendments.

Composition of the Committee
The committee will have an odd number of members, no fewer than seven, no more than thirteen. The Mayor and one Loremaster will be voting members of this committee. The composition of the rest of the committee will be as follows:


If the committee was convened after the exercise of Extraordinary powers by a Ranger, it will also include:
• the current Ranger who was involved in the incident and one other current Ranger;
• one former Ranger;
• a minimum of two volunteers from among the rest of the membership.

If the committee was convened by an initiative of the Mayor or two current Rangers, it will also include:
• the two current Rangers who brought the initiative;
• one former Ranger;
• a minimum of two volunteers from among the rest of the membership.


If the committee was convened by an initiative of the members, it will also include:
• one current Ranger;
• one former Ranger;
• a minimum of three volunteers from among the membership, one of whom will be a member who brought the initiative;
• and if five or more volunteers are accepted from among the membership, two of them will be members who brought the initiative.

The Committee will be convened by posting a sticky thread in the Business Forum and accepting volunteers in order until the committee is filled and composed as required. Any registered member may serve on the committee.

Committee Procedure
The committee will convene in the Jury Room for deciding whether the Charter should be amended and for drafting the amendment. The committee itself will vote on elements of the amendment before presenting a final form to the membership for ratification.

The membership will be given ten full days to discuss the amendment. During that period, anything deemed controversial may be removed and tabled for later consideration, or the amendment may be withdrawn. Following the discussion a yes/no poll will be posted in the thread and members will vote for ten full days, whether or not to ratify the amendment.

A Global email will be sent to all registered member at the start of the discussion and at the start of the vote.

Quorum and Majority Requirements
In order for a ratification vote to be valid, sufficient votes must be cast to reach a quorum, defined as follows:
• Records will be maintained for the proportion of members who voted in the last seven elections that required a quorum.
• ‘Proportion of members who voted’ will be calculated as the number of votes cast divided by the number of members active over the sixty days prior to the vote.
• A moving average of those last seven proportions will be calculated, converted to a percentage, and 5% will be deducted to account for variation.
• The resulting percent will be multiplied by the number of members active during the sixty days prior to the posting of the ratification thread, and that will be the number of votes required for a quorum.

Records necessary for calculating a quorum will be maintained by the Mayor and posted in Michel Delving where the members can see them.

The number of votes that must be cast to reach a quorum will be posted in the ratification thread.

If the vote has not attained a quorum at the end of the voting period, voting may be extended for an additional seven days. If, at the end of the extension period, a quorum has still not been obtained the proposition will be considered defeated.

In order for an Amendment to be ratified, 67% of those voting must approve. This provision will be posted in the ratification thread.

If the quorum as calculated from a moving average falls below 20%, the Committee for Amendments to the Charter will convene to reconsider our participation requirements.

Archiving the Voting Results
When voting has concluded (or the amendment has been withdrawn), the threads used by the committee in the Jury Room and the ratification thread in the Business Room will be archived in the forum entitled “Threads of Historical Interestâ€


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 1:49 am
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I'm not sure we even need to amend the Charter in order for Eru to ask the Rangers to do the follow-up on Ranger schedules.

Originally the Rangers sent out the welcome letters and the Mayor just posted the list, but it proved easier for the Mayor to send out the letters and that's how it's been done.

The important thing is not which person lines up the Rangers but that someone does it in timely fashion. The Ranger Pool has to be kept up to date and posted in a place where everyone knows to look for it. Maintaining those records is the main purpose of the Mayor's office ... having everything needed for administration in one place with one person responsible for its currency. But there's no reason why Eru herself must perform every single function of the administration.

Eventually we might want to bring the Charter into line with actual practice, but if all Eru wants to do at this point is delegate the resonsibility for scheduling Ranger terms, I see no reason why she can't just do that.

Jn

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 2:06 am
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I think she is also looking for a shorter term, and I just figured we could do it all in one felt swoop.
I don't see any objections to the Mayor changes. This should be an easy one.
One of the things I like about the way things have been set up, is how things can be amended when needed.
We try things and if they don't work we amend them.
Like the year term for the Mayor which I implicitely remember telling you guys about. Did you listen to me? Noooo! :P


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 2:41 am
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Here's a question to you all. How is my simplified mayor article looking with the scheduling stuff left out? It seems there is a concensus between two loremasters that such a change is no within the scope of the charter. I'm sorry, Eru. I see this the way you do. I'm trying to help you out as best I can.

I have a request... I don't mind the tangents about amendments and such, but I would like the members to at least devote a piece of their post to commenting on my simplifications. I can't tell how well the committee is doing if there is no feedback. Thanks. (The tangents need not move to another thread, just so I'm clear here.)

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 3:30 am
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TED, yes, you're right. I don't have time to compare existing Charter to your revisions right now - I'll try to do it tomorrow - but the general question seems to be whether you can move things out of one article if you haven't yet moved them into another.

Personally, I don't see a problem doing that. What I might suggest, to avoid oversights, is that you create another thread for the things you're moving out of the Mayor article, with a reference to the Article they will go into. Just leave them sitting there until you're ready to address the other article.

Some responsibilities of the Mayor that can be eliminated, like serving on all those committees, don't appear in Article 4 at all, iirc. So you could also use the extra thread to keep a list of those things that Eru wanted eliminated to remember to address them when you get to those other articles.

Generally the simplifications as I read them look OK to me. But I would like go section by section through existing stuff before committing to an opinion, and will try my best to do it tomorrow.

jn

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Elian
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 3:31 am
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All right, you know what? I went back to Jynusa's original post requesting that this committee be formed. And here's some of what she had to say there:
Jnyusa wrote:
-There are other things that probably should be changed but are likely to stir considerable debate.


-...people particularly interested in amending the Ranger and Dispute by-laws could join...


-This amendment committee was formed under Article 3, and we have the right to address anything we consider relevant to the recent recurring problems that led to the use of Extraordinary Powers.
(All emphasis mine)

Point being, I beleive we actually are entitled to make changes to the Charter under this.

Those statements do technically refer to what was supposed to be the second part of this committee, which would be reformed after the simple deletions had taken place so that members could rotate in/out if they chose. If people would be more comfortable with having us put up a ballot with just simplifications and then 'reforming' in order to put up any actual changes, I see no problem with that.

Thoughts?

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 5:47 am
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Nice research, El.

Jny, the extra thread is a good idea. Right now those things being moved are actually sitting in limbo (my head) right now. Sadly, the thread to my head is not accessible by any of you. I'll work on a moving thread once I get an okay from the loremaster, Fixer. At this point, I'm just stuck because him and another loremaster seem to agree concerning the moves.

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Lurker
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 6:21 am
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*The nitpicker is back.* :blackeye:

I had time to think this over during dinner.

Eru is asking the committee to
Quote:
"The only thing I want changed is for Rangers to schedule Ranger terms instead of the Mayor doing it...rangers finding their own replacement."
I read the simplified version and it reads:
2. Duties and powers
The mayor is responsible for record keeping, verifications and notifications regarding eligibilities.


Record keeping coincides with this:
Quote:
The mayor will be responsible for keeping track of the eligibility of members, the order in which they enter the pool of full Rangers, and the actual scheduling of terms of office.

The Mayor is held accountable for determining what constitutes a ‘continuous, visible, and contributory presence,’ approaching members so qualified to obtain their agreement to serve, and entering the names of those who volunteer into the roster of new entrants and then the training pool. Those rosters will be prominently posted, and volunteers will remain on the roster of new entrants for at least ten days.
What I'm trying to say is wouldn't it be difficult for rangers to keep track of scheduling when "They serve three-month terms and are selected from among the members who are eligible and have volunteered and alternating."

That is why Jny said and I qoute
Quote:
"Maintaining those records is the main purpose of the Mayor's office ... having everything needed for administration in one place with one person responsible for its currency. But there's no reason why Eru herself must perform every single function of the administration".
I'm all for delegating no problem but as I was reading the charter "If we delegate the task of scheduling rangers among themselves does these mean that task scheduling will be handed over to another person every three months". :scratch:

I have you guys think this over. Like I said I've been very busy and my wife has been telling me my lack of sleep is not gonna help you guys out, so I better catch some ZZZZ's first. ;)

I'm not trying to make your life difficult guys, just doing what I volunteered for.

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Elian
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 6:30 am
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I thought that all Eru really wanted the Rangers to do was, in essence, choose their own replacement...as in, they'd look at the pool of available Rangers, which she would still keep updated, and choose one so that the time zone/language requirements and all would be safisfied. Which I don't think would be too much of a burden on the Rangers, really.


Eru? Can you clarify exactly what it is you want done here?

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 7:01 am
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I would like for the Rangers to schedule the new Ranger terms. All they have to do is look at the Ranger roster, focus on the people at the top of the list, and ask those people if they'd be willing to serve...and probably give those people an idea of what it's been like to serve as a Ranger recently.

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