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Drop the simplification?

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Should we drop the simplification committee?
Yes
  
46% [ 17 ]
No
  
54% [ 20 ]
Total votes: 37
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yovargas
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 8:48 pm
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Scenario: TED starts a thread in the Bike Racks. Cerin thinks that the thread should not be there.

How might Cerin have tried to resolve that disagreement pre-Charter?
How might Cerin have tried to resolve that disagreement post-Charter?
Which method is more likely to lead to widespread contention?


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 8:53 pm
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The post-charter method.

By the way, is it possible for one of the admin to change my vote from 'no' to 'yes'? By voting 'yes', I am not saying nothing should be done, but that I don't think just simplifying the charter is enough.

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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 9:08 pm
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yovargas wrote:
Scenario: TED starts a thread in the Bike Racks. Cerin thinks that the thread should not be there.

How might Cerin have tried to resolve that disagreement pre-Charter?
How might Cerin have tried to resolve that disagreement post-Charter?
Which method is more likely to lead to widespread contention?
I believe both situations would have ended up badly and equally spreading contention.

.
.
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Admins cannot change votes.

.
.
.

I would like to make one last plea for people to vote no. I would really like to at least work on the Mayor Article. Please. It needs to be done.

Last edited by Eruname on Wed 11 Jan , 2006 10:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 9:21 pm
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I come here with two purposes.
The first is to apologize to the people of the board and to Yov and Hal specifically for some reprehensible behavior lately.
I allowed myself to become something I abhor and it was foolish and stupid.
I was angry and still am, but that is no excuse for that type of behavior. I should know better and I do.
A big sorry to all.

Second I have to respond to this;
TheMary wrote:
Wait Iavas it sounds like you want to work around those without the ability to control themselves. Which seems ass backwards to me. Expecting people to be respectful isn't asking too much.

Not I'm not being hypocritical I'm trying to see the error of my ways and fix that because I know I have this problem.
I have to say that is about the most encouraging thing I have read here in a long while. It takes a lot of guts to admit that. I am very proud of the effort and good faith you have brought to this discussion.
You are ok for a spoiled brat. :kiss:

I really believe the best step this community could take would be to repair relationships and attempt to piece back together the splintered connections.
We will never be able to get back to where we were, but I do think things could be done. For example Katie's great attitude and willingness to try and work things out. Did I tell you I am proud of you? :kiss:

And no, bad behavior will always occur and will never be totally eradicated. I am a prime example of that.
It is the repeated non-stop crap that has to be squashed before the entire community gets infected.

The charter is flawed and does need amending and fixing.
It is structured in such a way that it can be amended.
I just don't think now is the time for that.

I would love to have things as they were before, but that isn't reality.
Everything was based on past practice and poll after poll.
It would be like voting for every single issue that came up and would be way more cumbersome than the charter. That too caused problems.

Most of the stuff in there was not written because of everyone here. It was put in there to cover possible eventualities for when we opened.
Some of it we will never need, but there has to be some method of responsibilty and operation.

It is great having these ideas tossed out there, but I think they would carry more weight if the ideas were supported by something concrete. Like a text document. It is too esoteric presented in this way. I cannot envision some of the things suggested.

I don't have any answers, just opinions like everyone else.
My opinion is that everything flows from the health and strength of the community.
I think the patient needs to be healed before we do plastic surgery.

I am off for a bit to try and pull my head out of my ass. :)
Hope to see everyone soon.
And once again, sorry.


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yovargas
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 9:29 pm
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Quote:
It would be like voting for every single issue that came up and would be way more cumbersome than the charter.
Think back over the last 3-4 months. Are there any issues that have come up besides the charter that would need voting on?


I feel like I'm sounding argumentative about this (a la Fixer's definition) when that is not my intention so I'll try and back off after this as I'm sure I've made my point by now.

And for what it's worth, I wasn't mad atcha. :)


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 9:33 pm
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Hey, heres an idea. The next n00bie has to change the charter. The very next person to join, has to fix the charter. :D

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TheMary
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 9:35 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Welcome to b77 here fix this *hands n00b the charter* :D

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 9:41 pm
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Time for an anonymous alternate ID methinks.. :devil:

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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 9:41 pm
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I can't help myself. :roll:
yovargas wrote:
Think back over the last 3-4 months. Are there any issues that have come up besides the charter that would need voting on?
That's because the charter already has procedure laid out. We don't have to vote on that stuff anymore.

Get rid of the charter and you'll instead bring about more discussions about how to do things and it will be even a bigger pain in the ass than what we have now.

I should see if I can dig up all theads where procedure and what should be done have been discussed.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 9:43 pm
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Quote:
Think back over the last 3-4 months. Are there any issues that have come up besides the charter that would need voting on?
Without the charter you needed a poll to change a smiley. The rangers were totally handcuffed and had no idea what they could and could not do.

There has to be guidelines.


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 10:00 pm
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Quote:
Without the charter you needed a poll to change a smiley. The rangers were totally handcuffed and had no idea what they could and could not do.

There has to be guidelines.
Then keep the guidelines that are helpful to the rangers with admin-y tasks, and anything else of obvious benefit, and get rid of the rest..

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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 10:04 pm
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Practically all of the charter is procedure and guidelines.

Please take the time to read through the charter. Seriously.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 11:29 pm
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I was only talking about the guidelines pertaining to everyday admin tasks, not the guidelines for things like dispute resolution..

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 12 Jan , 2006 3:10 am
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Just so everyone knows, this little poll of mine is going to run for at least a week so that people who have limited connectivity can see it and to give people who are on the fence enough time to decide.

I am still abstaining. Laureanna, I know you asked me about an "undecided" option and I'm sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I really don't want to add choices since a lot of people have already voted. My suggestion to you is to abstain if you prefer to remain undecided.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 13 Jan , 2006 5:53 am
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I'm simply amazed that on this random day that I view the poll it is dead even. :LMAO:

I think that's really, really funny.

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Lidless
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Posted: Sat 14 Jan , 2006 8:09 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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My fifth post of the year.

Having stepped back for a couple of weeks and just popped back today and read the Jury Room and the commentary threads, the following has become evident to me:

1 Any charter discussion is a painful, emotional and exhausting process.

2 Charter simplification is equivalent to doctors putting a lighter bandage on a wound without treating the wound. The Charter failed and I'll address that in a new thread.

Therefore I suggest we abandon this effort and focus what energies are out there on rewriting the Charter from scratch (or wound) and actually address what needs fixing.

It may be a harder thing to get past members, but ultimately is something that needs to be done. Let's get it done and move on.

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yovargas
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Posted: Sat 14 Jan , 2006 8:21 pm
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Quote:
Therefore I suggest we abandon this effort and focus what energies are out there on rewriting the Charter from scratch (or wound) and actually address what needs fixing.
Better idea: make sure that there's still a board here worth saving. We need new activity and new life on the board FAR FAR FAR more than we need a better charter.


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halplm
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Posted: Sat 14 Jan , 2006 8:26 pm
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I think I'm with yov on this one now. Why don't we lock the Business room for a couple of weeks?

Put the ranger communication and Ranks thread somewhere else for a while, and just shut this forum down for a while. What would it hurt?

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yovargas
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Posted: Sat 14 Jan , 2006 8:29 pm
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Never gonna happen but I would be thrilled, hal.


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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
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Posted: Sat 14 Jan , 2006 9:15 pm
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yovargas wrote:
Better idea: make sure that there's still a board here worth saving. We need new activity and new life on the board FAR FAR FAR more than we need a better charter.
Yes, please. :( For the love of all that is holy.




*E*

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