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Drop the simplification?

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Should we drop the simplification committee?
Yes
  
46% [ 17 ]
No
  
54% [ 20 ]
Total votes: 37
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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Drop the simplification?
Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 2:47 am
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It's your turn people. Vote and I'll abide by your wishes.

Thank you. It's been fun.

-Mike

Edit: this is an informal poll. I'm going for simple majority. My apologies for forgetting this.

Edit 2: this poll will run for a week or so, or until things implode.

Last edited by TheEllipticalDisillusion on Wed 11 Jan , 2006 6:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Elian
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 3:09 am
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I can't vote...I can't possibly vote yes because I hate to give in to manipulation, intentional or not, I hate to give up on this because it isn't wrong, and because it means that the process has utterly failed if a committee can't even get to the proposal stage because of pressure from the membership. (I wonder how long it'll take someone to come in and tell me that means the exact opposite...)

On the other hand, I can't vote no because it seems that this is really hurting the board. I know it is, even if it's just a symptom of a bigger problem. And I love this board, I have since I joined and figured out it was really different.

But...fuck people, if I can't even do this one little thing to help build it, how the fuck can I stop all the things falling apart around me that I see? This sucks and I've had enough of it. :bawl:

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 3:11 am
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What Elian said. :neutral:

TED, having seen your post in the Jury Room, please don't vote one way or the other just to appease anyone.

Would you like this stickied?

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 3:12 am
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Yes, I would like it stickied. Thank you, Mossy.

I'm abstaining from voting.

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halplm
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 3:28 am
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I won't vote either, for the same reasons

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 3:31 am
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How long is this poll going to run?

Does there have to be a quorum for the vote to count?

What are you going for - a simple majority?


Jn

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Elian
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 3:34 am
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:damnfunny:


Are you serious? Seriously??





if not, pretty funny.

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 3:40 am
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I don't want to vote either. Do I want to see some simplification and changes made to the Charter? Yes, definitely. Do I want to see the fighting continue and people leaving because of it? Heck no.

Are you joking, Jny? If not, well.... You know, now (or this thread) might not be the time for jokes, however ironic they may be.

:neutral:


Lali

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laureanna
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 3:41 am
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Um, you need to put up a third category: "Undecided" for those of us who are ambivalent or blissfully ignorant and unable to think clearly in black and white. It will count as a "no", but it will give you a better idea of the enthusiasm of the crowd.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 4:09 am
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Elian: Are you serious?

Lali: Are you joking, Jny? If not, well.... You know, now (or this thread) might not be the time for jokes, however ironic they may be.

I am perfectly serious.

The committee started work without so much as an agenda so that members could see what they were going to address, and how, and when. The committee has jumped from topic to topic and spent most of its time up here in the business room arguing with members about superfluous things. Instead of pursuing the task they were charged with - to get rid of the Ownership clause and Article 11 and then to rotate the committee - they jumped right to a revision of the key principles which were not even written by the convention committee but right here in the business room by the members themselves.

Members are rightly objecting to this bizarre procedure and are accused of manipulation?

I can't figure out what is going on, and I'm sure not going to vote without even knowing what I'm voting for.

Binding votes have traditionally required a ten day discussion period followed by a ten day ballot. So that people who are only here once a week will have a chance to ask questions and to see the poll. That's obviously not the procedure being followed here, so what ARE you doing?

How will you know when the vote is over? How long do I have to make up my mind? What happens if only five people vote? Does it still count?

What does the result of the vote mean at all? If everyone votes "yes -stop now" will the committee disband? Will the ownership provision just sit there like yesterday's garbage?

Is the membership supposed to be psychic and just guess what's going through your heads? What are you doing at all?

Jn

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Elian
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 4:12 am
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We're starting an informal poll to get a sense of what the membership WANTS, Jnyusa. Which I think should always be in the minds of a committee.


Informal being the key word here.

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elfshadow
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 4:20 am
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In my mind, TED as the chairman of the committee asked the members of this board a question with this poll...a simple question. He's asking people their opinion. Why do we care about whether it reaches quorum, or the type of majority it will be, or how long it will run? Why should this have so much to do with ceremony? If you ask me that's why the boards have been dying, or haven't been functioning, or whatever. People are too damn concerned with these relatively meaningless legalities and details that they forget the big picture. And that big picture isn't the Charter, it's the people who post here. This is far from the first time anyone's said that, plenty of people have said it countless times.

TED asked a question. Vote in the poll, don't. Your choice. But if you get caught up in the details, then that's all you'll ever see.

And as far as the topic at hand, I don't know how I'll vote.


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oldtoby
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 4:25 am
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Well I would recomend you should vote by clicking either the yes or no circle, and then clicking "submit vote" :devil:


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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 4:33 am
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Seems like an informal poll to me.

I'm voting and voting no as I really want to get rid of some of the Mayor stuff.


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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 4:50 am
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Double posting to plead with people to please vote no as the Mayor part of the Charter really needs some simplifying.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 4:59 am
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In my mind, TED as the chairman of the committee asked the members of this board a question with this poll...a simple question.

If that's correct, then I will ask TED to edit into his first post the fact that this is an informal poll to get a sense of what the members want and not a Binding Vote that will disband the committee.

Why do we care about whether it reaches quorum

Because I want to know whether the results are binding on the committee or just a straw poll. Why is that such an odd question?

or the type of majority it will be,

Because Elian already threatened to quit, and so did TED (in the Jury Room) just because some members said in the follow-along thread that they didn't want the committee to go too far. And the committee got all defensive about this, which I find inconceivable for a group of people who are supposed to be acting ON BEHALF OF the members. So - what? - if three people show up and say they don't want the charter simplified is the committee going to walk out? I want to know what their intentions are.

or how long it will run?

Because I don't want to take two days to think about it, then show up to vote and find that the vote is over and the committee has disbanded, and now I'm affected as a member but had nothing to say about it.

Why should this have so much to do with ceremony?

You call it ceremony. I call it COURTESY.

If you ask me that's why the boards have been dying, or haven't been functioning, or whatever. People are too damn concerned with these relatively meaningless legalities and details that they forget the big picture. And that big picture isn't the Charter, it's the people who post here. This is far from the first time anyone's said that, plenty of people have said it countless times.

Meaningless legalities like making sure members know there's a vote going on??????

Even if it's just a straw poll, people have a right to know what their vote means, what it's result will be. They have a right to know how long they have to think about it and express their opinion. They have the right to discuss it among themselves in the thread.

And STILL any attempt to protect these rights is called commitment to the Charter and instead of the people?

THIS is commitment to the people - making sure they know what is happening on the board and what it means to their posting lives and how their response will be interpreted.

I don't care if TED wants to put up a straw poll as long as I know that this is what it is. He doesn't need a quorum to do that, but he needs to tell us how he will interpret the results. He needs to tell us how long the poll will run so that we don't decide in our own minds how we want to vote after the vote is over.

Jn

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Elian
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 5:22 am
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Well jeez Jny, you could have just asked if it was an informal poll then and saved us all a lot of trouble. :LMAO:

Quote:
Because Elian already threatened to quit, and so did TED (in the Jury Room)
:suspicious:

I did? I didn't even vote to end the damn committe, for heaven's sake, I certainly won't quit if others don't. I'm sick of the drama, yes, as is TED, but neither of us are quitting. Don't think we are until you hear those exact words from us. :)

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elfshadow
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 5:23 am
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Jny, I understand what purpose these legalities serve. Personally I'm comfortable enough with the poll in this thread to not need things spelled out...and that's really just my opinion. I just don't feel the need to make this thread and its poll all official, because it seems clear to me that it's not absolutely official. But if it would help to write in the first post that it's not official, great. TED can do that if he wants.

In my mind, committment to the people doesn't have to entail seemingly endless details. I appreciate the work that the people did on Charter v1.0, I really do...or at least as much as I can considering I've only been around for a few months and wasn't here when it was written. But in the time I've been here it's seemed to me like the board almost revolves around legalities and following procedure, and that's something I personally believe we don't need. If having the Charter makes people feel better about posting here, then we should have a Charter. But the Charter shouldn't come at the expense of the members, and that's what I'm afraid of.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 5:35 am
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I'm sorry that I didn't put up an agenda, but I did have the progress up for all to see in my first posts in both the comment and committee thread. It's not as though I kept things hidden from the members.

As for when the committee was to be rotated. Jny, this isn't your committee so you have no right to tell me what to do with regards to rotating it. We only agreed that 3 pieces could be deleted. Yes, the bickering in the business room hampered the committee because it divided committee member's attentions which left two or three of us to want to decide things but not deciding without giving other members the chance to voice their opinion. Also, quite a few members of the committee have had RL problems which come FIRST to anything online, that cuts the committee in half practically. Please don't give me the third degree on how committees should be run. You run your committees your way, I run mine my way. You want to set the agenda, run the committee.

Edited: Eru, you're right.

Last edited by TheEllipticalDisillusion on Wed 11 Jan , 2006 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 5:51 am
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Could you edit out the penultimate word out of your last post TED? I think it would be for the best.


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