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The future of Board 77

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Guruthostirn
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Posted: Sat 05 Feb , 2005 8:54 pm
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Interesting question though...how big can we get on this free board? I asked this earlier...none of the admin ever got back on what's the max size and storage space allowed...we really need to think about that.

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Lidless
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Posted: Sat 05 Feb , 2005 9:26 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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We'll need to have a look at the costs, but Jen and I would be happy to fund a private website. Certainly next year post-wedding, anyway.

No PMs. No advertising. No pop-ups. Just us.

And we would have no veto over anything, nor any extra say in the democratic process or the establishment of it.

The board would be run by the posters, for the posters and of the posters. That's *our* vision. All of us, I think, which goes some way to answering Squid's first question.

Last edited by Lidless on Sat 05 Feb , 2005 9:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Rodia
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Posted: Sat 05 Feb , 2005 9:27 pm
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:bawl: <--happy

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Guruthostirn
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Posted: Sat 05 Feb , 2005 9:30 pm
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Steve, I'm sure you'd get plenty of help. I remember a thread not so long ago where a lot of people said they'd pay for this place. It's changed a lot since then, but I'm sure the sentiment holds. I think this place has serious potential, and I'd put in my money for the cause.

However, in the meantime, let's hope we can stay here for a while...I just hope there aren't any limits we're about to hit.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 12:02 am
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Jny, that was beautifully put! :) (About being in Tolkien's spirit etc.)

I think one reason it's so difficult to build up content is that we are all so busy working at our constitution (so to speak ;) )

For example, I hardly ever check the books and movie forums at all - most of the time is taken up by reading this kind of thread, and in between, for a little amusement, I check the Turf or Welcome, because there'll be something funny that doesn't take a lot of reading and thinking.

So, at the moment, the RP forum is the only really active one. But we do want to cover as many of the things Jny said as possible. I do hope that the current inertia of books is just temporary.
On the other hand, I don't know ANY MB apart from TORC that has really bookish discussions - any other board I've ever seen only has mini-discussions like "I like this"/"I hate this" - nothing academic. So maybe we shouldn't get our hopes up too high. ;)
(On the other hand, I'm hoping for vison to bring some bookish input - it's unbelievable how much she has read! :Q )
I'd also like to see a Manwe-like place evolve.

But I don't think there's be a lot of development until the structural stuff is decided upon.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 4:56 am
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Thanks, TH.

Lidless and Din, yes I would be willing to contribute to upkeep, but I want to add something to what Lidless said ....

What I saw emerging on Torc was a small group of people (small relative to the whole 40,000 passersby) buying the PM's and donating to the site and participating actively in building the forums. Jonathan makes a terrible business mistake, in my opinion, believing that these people should not be incorporated into the planning process and the process of crafting Torc's 'vision' for the future. He makes a mistake by saying that some people are not more important than others to the future of the site. (I'm prodding him a little bit about his business practices in that statistics thread he started.) I would like to see us behave more pragmatically than Jonathan does, and with a better understanding of what creates commitment and loyalty within a community.

We want a democracy, and with that comes voter apathy. Ironically, the better-designed we are, the more apathetic people will be because people generally only get involved when they are unhappy about something. We're all pretty active right now, but this will change as the board grows. There will be 'activists' and there will be those along for the ride.

We'll have to honor the fact that decision makers are simply those who actively make decisions, who actively contribute to the upkeep of the site and to discussion and planning, and participation can't be forced on anyone.

The key to turning uninvolvement into a strength is creating a constructive mechanism for opposition. You don't have to get everyone involved until everyone says yes; you just have to have a way of presenting decisions in a format where people can say no if they feel strong opposition.

This is where 'mission statements' enter the picture ... you want guidelines for your active decision makers so that they know that what they are pursuing is consistent with what has been done in the past and the general plan for the future ... beyond that, you have to recognize that the first say in the running of the board is going to be had by those who are paying for it, those who are actively involved, those who care ... and the rest of the people are going to enter generally only when they object to something. So, if your mission is democracy, the way you ensure that is to have a vehicle for objections.

When we get a little farther along in the Modding Decision Thread, I'm going to make some suggestions for procedure that will make this concept more concrete.

When I was working in the non-profit sector I designed decision process for about six international coalitions, each with more than a hundred member groups (all speaking different langugages). They needed a way to instantly respond to issues - like massacres, illegal timber leases, etc. - and they were all bogged down in discussion to the extent that responses were always too late and too weak. The process I designed for them was a process of elimination - first let the ad hoc committees design a response, then put it out to everyone. Whatever is not eliminated by objection stays and becomes your first response. Whatever might be added but is not yet agreed upon, that you discuss but you don't let it hold up your first response. We actually succeeded to get two companies halted in their tracks using this process - one in Indonesia, one in Nicaragua - and I think it may be the only time environmental organizations actually got a company to stop what it was doing before the damage was done.

How to transfer these concepts to virtual communities interests me very, very much ... which is why I am so enthusiastic about B77. We have to find a way to make community work in virtual reality, because the whole economy, the whole society is moving into this realm. I know that B77 does not exist for the purpose of being the sociological vanguard (though I bet Estel is really interested in this too), but it can be what it is and also be a vanguard.

Jn

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Estel
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 5:55 am
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Just a quick note (and yes Jnyusa, I am very interested in seeing how this developes)

Firstly, we don't have one goal here, we have two.

1. Our goal while we are a closed board

During this phase, we are deep in discussion. Our goal, literally, is to figure out what our board is going to be when #2 happens. This might seem like the same thing to a lot of you, but it is not.
We're trying to figure out our "government," the way we're going to run the board, what we'll do in case of emergencies, etc etc. Basically, everthing that Jn listed on page 6.

Let's keep in mind that we don't have to hurry on this. There's been discussion of opening up the boards in 6 months to one year. We have that much time to figure out those things, and figuring out those things *is* our goal for the boards right now.



2. Our goal for the board when it opens to the public

When we do open up the boards to the public, all the little details will be worked out - the rules, how everything works - everything from goal #1. So, what will there be to get people here?
What *are* we, in non-technical terms?
What do we want board77 to be?
It is an experiement in government right now, and always will be, but will that be how we advertise our board?
Will we advertise our board?
We know what will keep people here, but what is going to draw them in in the first place?


It's 2am, so I'm not wording this well at all. Hopefully someone else will have an understanding of what I am trying to say, and word it in better terms, lol.


For right now (and yes, I've said this in another thread), we are a board where the posters know and trust each other. We don't have to worry to much about having controls in place because the invitation process is our control.

The question is, how are we to remain a democratic board when we open up and have to put new controls in place?


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Mighty_Squid
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 8:36 pm
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Excellently put Estel.

I don't feel I have any hard opinion on the future of this site for many reasons. One of them being I just got here. ;)

I am kind of an outside observer here and I do feel that it kinda gives me a different perspective.

I would caution agaist using TORC as your only example on how things work. It's a big virtual world out there and lots of people run thier site in different ways.

If you have not already checked it out I really do suggest taking a look at TheAdminZone. The whole thing is about running messageboards. Also Daniweb has some good information although they are more technical. Just ignore me in both those places. ;)

Also one reason I am advocating moving to the full phpBB on your own server is that there are many technical tools available to help run a community. One thing I am thinking about adding to my board is a Karma Mod. People can give people positive Karma if they did something nice for them or made them laugh or give them negative Karma if they called them a shithead or used netspeak excessivly. Everyone can see the Karma and Admins can change it too.

There are loads of technical areas of running a board that directly effects how the board is run that should not ignored.

I am not trying to be annoying or anything. Just putting out there things you may not have thought about.

I know this is in part an intellectual exercise (which I also find very intriguing) and I am just trying to help out in the research department.

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Berhael
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 9:45 pm
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I like Jny's "leadership by default" style. Whoever is interested in doing something for the board - be it vote, or put themselves forward as admin, etc. - does it. If anyone objects, they speak up, but generally silence is regarded as acquiescence. :)

Working on the assumption that if anyone objects enough to a certain decision, they will speak up, is (IMO) fair and practical.

It would be a matter of fine-tuning what "objection" would mean. One voice against a certain proposal, a certain percentage?



I'm also intrigued by the question of a "mission statement". But I don't have anything concrete to contribute at the moment, beyond - "we're a place for friends to hang out, a homebase". I don't think that the "experiment on democracy" tag will last, once we've settled basic governance issues and become a fully-functioning board.

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laureanna
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 8:29 am
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We need a mission, but we also need a purpose. Here's my view, which is decidedly movie-oriented, though I have posted in just about every forum but Games.

2 to 5 years ago, how many people came to TORC just because they wanted to post in Talk? They came for Movie news mostly, but also for the Book Forum and the RP forums. If Talk was the only thing on TORC, I doubt if I or many others would have stayed.

We found each other compatible because we were all facinated by a story that was mythic, applicable, moral, ethical, and rich. We wouldn't have been drawn like moths to a candle over the adaptation of Ludlum's Bourne Trilogy. And we found others who shared our fundamental values, our love of discussing something to tease out the last little bit of symbolism, our wealth of trivia, our introspection, our erudite writing styles, our humor, and our common desire to dip below the surface and have meaningful conversations. Most of us are old enough to remember saying "Hey, that's deep, man."

I know that Jon, IE, and Dd are trying to recreate TORC with TheStoneTable, but they are basing their board on a children's tale that, frankly, I don't want to read and reread the way I enjoy rereading Tolkien. I like CS Lewis's other writings, but not the Narnia series.

So what about Board 77? What brought you here? What are you passionate about (other than certain other board members)? Is this just turning into one big cocktail party? Has the Tolkien well run dry? Are there other semi-sacred texts we could peruse? Are there some fabulous films coming up in a few years?

So anybody got any ideas? :scratch :idea: :drunk:

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Leoba
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 8:37 am
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Tolkien will always be our defining link, I think. But I am here because I want somewhere relaxed to hang out with my geek friends and where I can throw odd Elvish references into the conversation without being labelled a wierdo!

There are certinaly a fair few of us who don't watch many films. :oops: I would certainly never visit a messageboard dedicated to them. It's history and literature that tends to lure me in.

I did have a vague idea once upon a time that we could develop a Tolkien Society virtual smial (if they'd allow us!). But that does rather depend on whether the well of interest in the books has run dry. It certainly hasn't for me - I was in love with Middle Eath as a nine year old, it's not going to die just because the mass media interest has moved to pastures new.

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Rodia
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 11:06 am
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HEY!!!!

How about...dare I say it...a Book Club of sorts?

(perhaps complete rubbish and might not suit everyone)

To have always at least one group read going on. No obligation to participate, but it could be the main theme for this board- simply reading together, talking about, messing around with it. A Book project. Not just Tolkien, not just Fantasy and Sci-Fi, any book. One book a month for example.

It's vague but it's an idea... The Turf would always be a welcoming place for those of us who don't enjoy reading that much, or don't have time, or don't find the books chosen interesting.

Think of all the discussions that could sping from such a thing! Philosophical ponderings about issues mentioned in the book, talk of history and accuracy, talk of the writing style and what we can learn from it...

Think of it as a literature class with no roll-call, no grades, your choice of books and plenty of beer.

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Leoba
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 11:13 am
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I like the idea, Rodia. :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 12:32 pm
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A book club of sorts is a nice idea. But it's not what really defines us. I mean, when you come right down to it - Tolkien is what binds us all together. So, Leoba's idea of a Tolkien virtual smial (plus any and all other subjects that interest us -> just start a thread ;) ) as a base, I LOVE IT! :mrgreen: Tolien's well has certainly not dried yet - far from it !!

Do we need to put the 'Tolkien SOCIETY' label in there?
Would be nice (a bit of glamour, aye? ;) ) but I have no idea about any possible 'legalities' involved in such a thing.

'Fans of Tolkien's world - and lots of other interesting things besides' :mrgreen: :roll: I know it's neither terribly eloquent nor 'defining' ....

oh! And I'm nodding (quite furiously sometimes) at the posts that have gone before ... (just sayin')

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Leoba
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 2:20 pm
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Squiddy, thank you for the link to the Admin Zone. It's very interesting reading; it wouldn't hurt those of us who're interested to spend a few hours lurking round there. :smile:

*immerses self back in link about board democracy and how screwed up it can get*

And then I wonder why I get so little work done...

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Lidless
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 3:39 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Many are right re positioning.

There are several choices.

1 To have this as a mainstream, but slightly eclectic Tolkien-based forum. Not as dry as the Tolkien Society, but not as child-like as TORC/TORn. I talk of positioning. Yes there will be the cafes, the funny stuff, books, movies, life etc, but the main focus, the driving force, will be Tolkien.

If that is the case, where is the particular pull to here for new members? At the moment people come here from TORC because they miss their friends. There are already dozens of such MBs for Tolkien fans that cover the entire spectrum of fandumb. There is no extra attraction.

2 To have this based on books as a whole - perhaps having the forums designed like the Dewey system - with extra forums for hanging out and other topics.

000 Generalities
100 Philosophy & psychology
200 Religion
300 Social sciences
400 Language
500 Natural sciences & mathematics
600 Technology (Applied sciences)
700 The arts
800 Literature & rhetoric
900 Geography & history

...with subsections within each of these headings, but not like the Dewey system as they tend to be too complex.

The advantage to that is that we would attract a 'better quality' of poster and fewer of the netspeakers - articulate speakers that would also be excellent posters for philosophy etc and stimulate others, etc. But at the same time posters than can be themselves and use adult language either in the more social areas or in the book threads themselves. A place where you can say, "Yes, I'm snobbish, but I don't give a fuck."

3 To have the positioning based on democracy alone, where posters can really feel part of the community and of its evolution. Anything is up for grabs.

The drawback is that with a mass of people, there would be no direction, and any change would be slow, cumbersome and reactive.

4 Something else. The 'cozy playground' we have now just doesn't cut it.



Personally, I like the idea of a combination of 2 and 3.

The drawback is that a Google Search on 'literary forum' has close to 4 million hits.

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Rodia
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 3:52 pm
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We won't be the only ones, no matter what topic we choose. I think we needn't worry. After all, look at TORC- seemingly just another Tolkien forum but there was something about it that made us comfortable. Same here- we may be yet another Literature forum, but we already have a comfortable base. We run little risk of turning snobbish, or being sophisticated to the point of intimidating people. I think we will find a lot of people who need a relaxed atmosphere that still encourages discovery of books.

Besides, with the amount of members now, and the feelers we'll send out with each new member...we're not going to be THAT hard to find.

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Sunsilver
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 4:48 pm
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Leoba wrote:
Squiddy, thank you for the link to the Admin Zone. It's very interesting reading; it wouldn't hurt those of us who're interested to spend a few hours lurking round there. :smile:

*immerses self back in link about board democracy and how screwed up it can get*

And then I wonder why I get so little work done...
[AHEM] You can indirectly thank Allnurses for that link to the Adminzone, Leoba. I was the one that gave it to Inny, when I e-mailed her a frantic question about how to handle a suicide threat on Allnurses. (None of our own admins were available, and I assumed TORC was large enough and had been around long enough for this to have come up in the past.) When Brian, the owner of Allnurses posted his response, it was a direct quote from the Adminzone forum, and it was good advice, so I passed it on to Inny for her information. [See, I don't hate her...just some of the things she does.... :P] She thanked me profusely, and said that was a very valuable link to have, and was going to check the site out more thoroughly. [Let's hope it has a positive effect on her style...] [end of pat-self-on-the-back post...]

I also posted this to give you an idea of some of the more serious problems a large, open board must face.


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Sunsilver
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 5:01 pm
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Mighty_Squid wrote:

......Also one reason I am advocating moving to the full phpBB on your own server is that there are many technical tools available to help run a community. One thing I am thinking about adding to my board is a Karma Mod. People can give people positive Karma if they did something nice for them or made them laugh or give them negative Karma if they called them a shithead or used netspeak excessivly. Everyone can see the Karma and Admins can change it too.
Squiddy, TORC used to have a similar feature, called 'Renown'. It vanished during one of early upgrades, and was never put back in place again.

ALAS! My post count sucks, but I was quite proud of my renown! :(


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Berhael
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 5:02 pm
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My renown was astronomical, I never quite figured out how it worked. :Q

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