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The future of Board 77

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gimli_axe_wielder
Post subject: The future of Board 77
Posted: Thu 20 Jan , 2005 7:45 pm
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Well we have all been talking about it in several other threads spread across the board, I thought maybe one thread to discuss the future of this site might be a good idea... Someone slap me if there is already an active thread about this.. I skimmed pretty quick but didn't see anything still going on. I thought maybe a new thread with a fresh start was in order.

I'll start with a story! ;)

There is another site that I post at.. its a small one with mostly the old members of torc and several of the mods and such. Its a nice site with only a few membets, the only problem with it is that it is so small, that it has become very slow. Some forums havent had any reply's in months. The first pages of the active forums have dates going back several months once you get to the bottom of the page. I like the site, but unfortunatly, because it has been kept so small its just slowed way down and stagnated. They have tried to start opening it up to more and more people now so hopefully it will pick up again, but we will see...

We dont want the same thing to happen here. Right now there are a lot of us and it is going ok, but what happens 6 months or a year from now if some of us stop posting as regularly. We are all here now because it is new and fun, but things change and if we don't have enough people it will stop. We also need different viewpoints to create more interest. It's going to get very boring discussing things if the only thing we can all do is have one person make a nice post and the rest of us say yea I agree. Difference is good. Rudeness of course, should not be tolerated. We will have to institute some form of ToS here simply because we cant very well ban people for things with out telling them first that they aren't allowed to do it. Of course it could be as simple as rudness will not be tolerated and left at that. It can't be a pure democracy in all points. We cant have everyone vote on whether we need to ban someone or not simply because as we spend several days discussing it, they will be destroying the boards. Action will have to be taken immediatly. That requires mods.

We could set up some way where and administrator or moderator has the power to temporarily ban someone subject to the will of the rest of the boards. I dont know. You might run into privacy issues etc.

We all know what is acceptable because for the most part we know what the others here would approve of or not. We are comfortable with each other and know where to draw the line. As we get more people we are going to have people that dont know us as well, and we don't know them. It's already happening with some of the people being considered for invitations. There are becoming a lot more abstain votes because they dont know and are trusting others judgement. At some point it will come a time when people are coming here that none of us know. A friend of a friend of a friend sort of thing.

At that point. I suppose we become torc2 or something to that effect. It seems the general consensus is we dont want to become another torc.

SO... what do we want? What ideas do we have?


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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 20 Jan , 2005 7:51 pm
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Thanks for starting this gimli. I was going to start something like this myself.

I can't post now since I have to teach some lessons but I can say I'm concerned about when we have some not so nice people here in the future. We all vote people in now, but I'm not at all sure how the decision of bannings will be handled. It is something we'll have to deal with and we need to figure it out now before we start opening up the boards to everyone and their mother.


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Berhael
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Posted: Thu 20 Jan , 2005 9:19 pm
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Gimli, is it the Eldar Days? :) I was invited there by Whistler. It's a lovely place, and the sort of thing I had in mind for Board77. But I agree, it's small and sort of slow.

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gimli_axe_wielder
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Posted: Thu 20 Jan , 2005 9:43 pm
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Yep thats the place... IE of all people invited me there ;)


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Ethel
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 1:04 am
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Clearly we have come here from different directions, but all with some hope for the future. I don't feel particularly entitled to an opinion at this point, but see no harm in sharing my own thoughts and hopes. Use or disregard as you see fit.

I'm a member of The Eldar Days too. It's a pleasant place, but I think it suffers from having too few members, or perhaps too few regular posters. It's the kind of board you visit at long intervals because not enough happens there to make it a daily 'net stop.' My dearest hope is that this board would evolve into my new 'home' on the net - a place I wouldn't want to miss visiting for even a single day, because of the likelihood that something interesting would have been posted. As TORC was for me in the past... but I feel I've sort of outgrown TORC. Or maybe it's just the loss of focus now that the movies are over. It probably didn't help that I didn't much enjoy ROTK either.

I always hoped there would be a spinoff from TORC that would retain the qualities I value, but permit a wider latitude of language and topics. In my perfect world, Board77 would become that.

Is there any interest in such an outcome, or am I just dreaming? I do have some ideas, many of which are probably stupid, but I think they could be refined with discussion and input from people smarter than me.

I think I'll stop there. I've been formulating some thoughts, but they may be unwelcome. I don't want to bore or annoy.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 1:43 am
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Yup I am a member at the Eldar Days too, although I haven't posted there in ages. It is a nice place, but Gimli is right, it is too slow. I do think that Elm kind of wants to keep it that way though. I don't think she is looking for a huge project on her hands. She misses the coziness of old TORC.
I guess everyone has there own vision of happiness. At TORC the size was not a huge problem excepting at the release of the movies and a month or so before and after. There were enough individual forums to spread things out a bit.
My own personal taste would fall somewhere in between TORC and the Eldar Days.
You know what though? It really is more about the people that post at a messageboard. Get the right number and type of posters, and the place will make itself with some nudging.
Really you just have to decide how big you want this place.

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Farawen
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 2:09 am
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*waits in awed silence, eyes shining brightly, for Ethel to continue talking about her ideas for this board's future*


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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 2:37 am
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Ethel wrote:
I always hoped there would be a spinoff from TORC that would retain the qualities I value, but permit a wider latitude of language and topics. In my perfect world, Board77 would become that.
I love you.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 3:21 am
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I have a story to share: I joined a very small messageboard in October last year - at the moment there are just 20 registered posters and unlikely to grow. It was created by a group of friends, some of whom have moved elsewhere, and they wanted to keep in touch with one another, and do a little bit of RP (not the kind I understand; based on dice and such. Confusing). I was invited - and am the only 'outsider', known initially to just my one good friend.

They're rather laid back and as it was all friends, there was no modding - the most technically adept one got the gong to do the background technical stuff but that was about.

Problem 1: one of the group immediately began to indulge in trolling behaviour - out and out aggression, abuse and insulting language, deeply offending and hurting people who were ostensibly her RL friends - or at least, RL friends of her husband. No one knew what to do; she was apparently not at all like this in real life.

Problem 2: It was an open board (I mean, who'd find it? And if they did, what possible interest would it hold for a stranger?) and registration was very loose. One day, in a thread dedicated to answering some hard ethical questions from a personal perspective, a complete stranger anonymously and viciously indulged in a detailed, excruciating character assassination of one poster who had been particularly open in her responses to some very personal questions.

The board suffered huge uproar and upheaval; hurt feelings everywhere; enormous distress. Attempts were made to track the culprit only to find dead ends at 'ghost' ISPs etc etc. And this was a board created by friends who live in the same town and see each other socially all the time - live in each other's pockets!

The point being: the board had no contingency plan, no accepted moral/ethical code so there was no fall back position.

We need a fall-back position. Self-modding works only when everyone is known and no one can come in from outside. And a clearly articulated context makes it more straightforward when regulating the smooth running of a community.

So I agree with Gimli that a structure ought to be agreed to and put into place.

But that's not all folks! :mrgreen: You get steak knives too!

erm...sorry, what I meant was...

What I think we're talking about here is....an honest to gods Vision (if that's not a dirty word :P)

I'm serious though. What kind of board do we want to see here in 6 months...in a year? Do we AGREE on what we want to see here? and I don't mean in regards to whether we have language filters or the banning policy (as I stated above, I agree they are important issues to be resolved, but are nevertheless small potatoes in the big picture).

At this stage, the MB is a bunch of friends (and hangers on, like me :P ), like-minded in some ways, who exchange the banter of everyday life. The RP, books and movie discussion are still embryonic and we don't really know where we want to take them. And what else?

I mean, what will be...the culture...the focus...the context? What kinds of subjects will we extend to? What kind of fora will we cater for?

It's all very well saying that the people will create the context - but that's rather nebulous.

Would be good to hear some "I have a dream" statements. :mrgreen:

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 4:38 am
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A very timely thread, Gimli! Like others, I've been thinking along these lines, too, and all the posts so far echo my own thoughts.

But I just got back from a very long workday so I'll have to come back tomorrow when my brain is fresh.

I would like very much to hear Ethel's ideas because I know what a great strategist she is. ;) Speak, Ethel!

Jn

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Impenitent
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 9:00 am
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Hmmm...I'm beginning to feel like chopped liver.


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Mummpizz
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 9:27 am
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Impenitent, why? I don't see anyone chopping at you. I find your story very interesting, and it is a splendid example of what could happen with an all-openness of the board ... since I came here, I pondered about the registration procedure (invite only, open to all etc) and its pros and cons, since the system as it is is a closed system with close to no possibility to a really "eternal" life.
- Lacking: input to discuss (ranting about TORC grows boring as TORC is left behind in a way)
- Lacking: input of new members (with TORC as single recruiting source, less members of b77 will even have contact)

I am almost insanely optimistic about b77. I see self-government as a valid option for this board. Before long, we will have regular "Courts" where problems between the posters will be discussed, and if not settled, maybe even decided by popular vote / poll. I hope we'll never have to ban anyone, but shy away anybody who'd turn into a Troll by simply ignoring or standing together.
This board is my City of the Sun (Spartacus), Anarres (LeGuin) and America (Ben Franklin). Like in all these places, people preferred to build something new from scratch to living in defined (and sometimes more refined) conditions.

Our potential is a shared love for Tolkien, which is but a loose cement and not a tight knot. It is also creativity - after all, it was founded by RPers! The foundation is trust and mutual respect (and a bit pickiness regarding new members). These are perfect anarcho-syndicalist structures. Anything could grow from this.

:Wooper: (I liked to place a "statue of liberty" emoticon here, but this guy came closest to it)

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 11:30 am
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You're anything *but* chopped liver Impenitent. I read up on this thread briefly this morning and made a resolution to come back to it as soon as time permits. It takes me ages to try and put something even half-eloquently worded together. I love the way you said: 'I have a dream' statement – for yes indeed, I do have 'ideal' dreams for I see a fantastic potential growing with this board with every passing day :mrgreen: I just wish I could sometimes just sit down and let my fingers ramble my thoughts away… but in a 'serious' discussion like this that would not shed a very good light on me :wink:

Like all of you here I've pondered issues like these, I've pondered them actually since the very creation of B77 for I always held the 'secret' hope that this board could, as Ethel so eloquently said turn out to be a spinoff from TORC that would retain the qualities I value, but permit a wider latitude of language and topics. In my perfect world, Board77 would become that.. I would love to hear more input form you on that, as much as I love to hear input from all of you here. Only by discussing it do we have a chance to attempt to formulate a 'vision' together and then strive towards achieving that.

Like Mummpizz I'm almost also insanely optimistic about b77. I see self-government as a valid option for this board.

- Lacking input to discuss:
I don't see this as a limiting factor except as a self-imposed one. There are always people that are more of the 'thread-start' kind and there are the 'others' more of the 'participating kind'. And that's ok. So long as everybody here feels comfortable to start or participate then we have no problem. It's the people that make the threads, the conversations and so long as you continue to participate we'll have plenty of on-going stuff. The more – obviously the better and the more vibrant this community becomes

- Lacking input of new members
I don't think so either. We have many invitation threads currently running although I admit the process is somewhat 'slow' – if 10 days can be considered that. I hope in the future to see people invited also that are not coming from TORC.. LotR is still an underlying binding factor but I would also love to see more non LotR based issues (and there are plenty already) and 'friends' of yours invited to participate in those. You know the 'feel' of this board and also know how it's changing. Invite people in that you see would be interested to participate. RL friends, acquaintances from other MB's. In order to make a wider spectrum threads on these spectra have to be created and depending on what interests crop up, separate fora could be created to make it all a bit more 'findeable' (gosh! English is really failing me here :oops: )

The foundation is indeed trust – and I trust you (all of you!) to suggest people as invitees that don't turn out to be trolls. To trust 'new members' to make 'appropriate suggestions' depends of course on a build-up of trust as those 'new members' integrate. That takes time. But having a voting system in place also opens up dialogue and through dialogue trust is able to build.

Mummpizz's vision incorporates also regular "Courts" where problems between the posters will be discussed, and if not settled, maybe even decided by popular vote / poll.
That option should be available IF the agonistic parties agree to such a course. Maybe they would prefer to solve whatever needs solving directly here (a much more transparent way of dealing with a problem) or maybe they'll opt to do so in private (IM, email). Each to their choice! But I know something like that also has it's difficulties and seeing something decided by popular vote is very tricky. Perhaps if such an avenue is sought by conflicting parties they would also agree on a mediator in this case – a person agreeing on trying to help the problem. But – I would not want to see a Moderator system installed for that – nor for any other reason actually. Rather that the involved parties can agree to someone acting as a mediator (if that person volunteers) – or have people volunteer as mediators then the involved parties have a chance to agree which mediator would take on the task.


But back to 'my dreams' :Wink:


- I would love to see a 'kind of' club, invite only mind you to avoid potential problems like Impenitent mentioned, where everybody is free to open up new subjects to their liking, where people freely interact with each another based on mutual respect.

A place where even 'rant' threads/posts about whatever are tolerated but are taken as that – as a letting off steam (which sometimes is necessary).

A place where when problems occur people can freely talk about it and try to strive for a solution – or, agree to disagree – with respect.

A place without 'class-hierarchy' where each person is just a poster with equal rights.

That we keep an admin-rotation system, but agree to 'tie-it-down' more 'formally'.
Eg. we agree that an admin will take on the job for a set amount of time, with a hand-over period. Currently we're pretty much running on the 3 months (switch-over sometime in Feb/beginning March). That could be re-evaluated if necessary. We already have the beginnings of a volunteering thread. When the time comes I'd like to see people putting themselves forward as admins (knowing they're committing themselves) and then there will be a general vote on who will take over for whom.
Admin's have no more 'rights' than any other poster but because they care for the B77 community and want to give something 'back' they'll do the admin tasks necessary to keep the board running smoothly. And yes – it's a 'thankless' job :wink:

A place where we can invite friends to participate, that everyone exercises this right if they know of someone that might fit within the atmosphere of this board. That members here are given time to consider potential newcomers and discuss, put their vote in (as we have it now).

I would not want a 'throw all doors' open policy. The potential risks are too high in my opinion.

That's my dream :mrgreen:

oh - and one more thing :wink: that people have patience - changes alwasy takes time especially where so many people have a right for input. That people don't feel slighted when not everybody replies to everybodies posts :wink: but that we do strive to acknowledge each another. That this board will always keep an air of tolerance.

'nuff :oops: ... I'm rambling again and my fingers need a check

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Axordil
Post subject: By adults, for adults
Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 4:07 pm
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and encouraging adult behavior. Which is not to exclue whimsey, or lunacy, or other deviations from the "norm"! Only adults can choose to be whimsical...

Trust and cooperation, even in argument (the goal of which should always be to find a solution, or at least to increase understanding, not to "win").

Controlled growth, although how that works will no doubt have to change over time. I've seen several ideas worth considering in the invite forum.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 5:08 pm
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Now you all will find out what I’m infamous for on TORC - deadly long posts!

1. The most frightening change any group undertakes is a change of Mission.

2. Oppositional groups are issue-specific. When the issue dies they die along with it. So if we want to survive we have to enter a very deliberate decision phase in which we change our mission from what we Oppose to what we Affirm.

3. We will not have a comfortable criterion for choosing new members until we have a clear idea what it is we are affirming through the existence of this board.

4. Transition is never a 180-degree turn. We need to explore the grievances that brought the board into existence with an eye to recasting them in their positive form, restating them as the objectives of this group rather than opposition to some other group. Several members have already done that beautifully - Leoba and Rho in another thread put the objectives exactly as I (as an outsider) would have put them. We have a novel idea - that an MB can be run democratically - and we want to be a living experiment for this idea.

5. I’ve heard all of you express informally just about all the things that go into a working democracy:
a. Everyone gets to be part of the decision process but also everyone has to take responsibility for the board. (Rotating the mods and admins is a very Athenian kind of democracy - very nice, imo.)
b. Both decision-making and conflict resolution have to be transparent - there can’t be secret deals and secret policing or ‘The People’ won’t have the information they need to actually run the board.
c. Democracy is more than just having a vote; it’s having an attitude toward cooperation, consensus, and compliance. Compliance has to be overwhelmingly voluntary. In the political realm, what democracy requires is not people who are willing to run in elections but people who are willing to lose elections. Otherwise it’s nothing but one coup after another - in our context, one troll after another requiring ever more authoritarian reactions.

6. We can look at these requirements of democracy and know what qualities we have to seek in new members. Do they believe that a messageboard can and should be a democracy? If they have a strong preference for authoritarian structures then they will not be an asset to this board. How do they behave when given authority? Are they transparent in the exercise of authority? Do they surrender authority when that is needed? People who do not handle authority well will not be an asset to this board because sooner or later they will be required to hold a position of authority. How do they behave in conflict situations? Do they deal transparently with those who disagree? People who love secrecy and back-room alliances will not be an asset to this board.

7. There are some corollaries to these questions:

a. If these are the questions we ask ourselves about the character of prospective members - Will they be comfortable with diffused authority? Do they handle their own authority well? Are they transparent in their dealings with others? etc. ... then the question of whether one or two people here don’t particularly like them or don’t get along with them becomes irrelevant. We don’t have to second-guess whether conflicts will arise in the future - they will! Count on it! - we only have to ensure that we have people who handle conflict well. We can’t guarantee that conflict won’t occur but we can greatly reduce the likelihood that it will destroy the board.

b. We don’t have to justify endlessly to ourselves the private nature of this messageboard. There are lots of private messageboards and they are private because they exist for a particular purpose. We exist in our current form for the purpose of being an experiment in messageboard democracy. People who don’t want to be an experiment in messageboard democracy do not belong here.The only way to screen the general public is to ask people whether they want to be part of a set-up like this before they enter. And, because we weren’t born yesterday, we also ask others who know them whether they would do well in a setting like this.

c. Over time, we will become less experimental. We will have found the protocols that work for us, and then we can open ourselves to people who want to participate in our threads but don’t want to be lab rats! There’s nothing wrong with allowing our policies to be guided by a recognition of how the process will change over time. Gimli suggested that we begin to formalize protocols now, and Mumps talked about ‘courts’ - which I think we will have to have if we want a transparent judiciary. It is very good, imo, to begin now that process of articulating these things to ourselves, but don’t be afraid to change them if they’re not working. Because this is an experiment, some of things we try are going to fail.

8. The Content of the Board - I’m not an RPer but it’s obvious to me that RPers are the largest subgroup of members. RP is our strength, so we should build on that first. I suggest that you guys brainstorm threads you would like to see exist, and start inviting new members based on their likely interest in those threads. Tell them that this is why they are being invited - we need characters for these threads - and explain to them the experimental nature of the board. Get their commitment to be a productive member of this experiment. They will have to mod, they will have to admin, secrecy is not tolerated, conflict-provocation is not tolerated, etc. Be transparent with them about what we are trying to do and why we think they personally would contribute to this. Let them know what they are getting into.

9. As far as inviting mods from TORC ... until we are sure that we are NOT inviting them just to prove that we are right and TORC was wrong, I suggest a moratorium.

Ok, those are all my thoughts for now.

Jn

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Berhael
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 5:57 pm
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Jny: :bow:

Just one little clarification on my part (I said I wouldn't get into complex discussions since my work- and drug-addled brain isn't up to the task) -
Quote:
9. As far as inviting mods from TORC ... until we are sure that we are NOT inviting them just to prove that we are right and TORC was wrong, I suggest a moratorium.
Maybe it's a matter of word choice, but when I suggested inviting people here who are TORC staff, I didn't do it with the intention of changing their minds, their loyalties or to prove them wrong. Or rather - to prove that they were wrong if (and only if) they thought that this was a lair of villainy and conspiracy. ;) But my main intention when inviting Squid, wilko etc. was as an exercise in transparency: letting the door open, so that they can wander in if they want, feel that they are welcome to do so, not putting certain documents under their noses, forcing them to read them and sign at the bottom.

Anyone who becomes a member of Board77 shouldn't be forced to agree with what other members think of other messageboards, IMO. And as part of this experiment on democracy (do I sense a future by-line?), we should be able to embrace people with very diverse ideas and criteria, as long as they expound them with clarity and courtesy.

Right, off to take my second daily dose of vitamin C and paracetamol...

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"The most terrifying day of your life is the day the first one is born [...] Your life, as you know it... is gone. Never to return. But they learn how to walk, and they learn how to talk... and you want to be with them. And they turn out to be the most delightful people you will ever meet in your life."


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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 6:20 pm
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Great post Jny :mrgreen: thanks for the effort. And thanks for expanding my vocabulary - had to dip into the dictionary a few times :wink:
Are you a lawyer btw? - Just curious.
Will take me some time to absorb all this. Will be back :D but not before I say that Ber's comment re why we invited TORC mods in the first place is dead on target :D
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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 7:03 pm
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Berhael wrote:
And as part of this experiment on democracy (do I sense a future by-line?), we should be able to embrace people with very diverse ideas and criteria, as long as they expound them with clarity and courtesy.
Right--so long as they accept the sine qua non, the essential democratic nature of the board. Once past that, everything is fair game.

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Ethel
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Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 7:30 pm
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A question: do most people here think the most important thing about this board is its governance? Are you interested it specifically as an experiment in democracy, or is that a reaction to what was perceived as a lack of democracy at TORC? Does content and so forth come second, in your opinion, to the method of governance?

Speaking only for myself, governance is not my number one issue. My interest is in having a board similar to TORC in the intelligence and interests of its posters, but with wider latitude with respect to language and content. I'm not opposed to participating in an experiment in democracy, but it isn't my primary interest. I mean, I'd be willing to do my part and all that - but I'd also be willing to just be a participant. But that's just me.

I'd also like to take a pulse about how committed people are to having this be an invitation only board permanently. I myself would like to see it open one day - otherwise it is limited from day 1 to former TORCers and their acquaintances. The search engines bring lots of trolls - but they can also bring wonderful people that you would never otherwise meet. Again speaking only for myself, I want them. Eventually, anyway.

I've been trying to formulate some thoughts and suggestions about the board's development... but it makes a difference whether the doors will be permanently closed or not, and where the ultimate focus is to be (on governance per se, or should some effort be put into developing a focus or set thereof.)

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Living well is the best revenge. --George Herbert


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Axordil
Post subject: The main reason I'm here
Posted: Fri 21 Jan , 2005 8:03 pm
Not so deep as a well
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Posts: 7360
Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 3:02 am
Location: In your wildest dreams
 
Content and governance are inseperable. Where there is authoritarian governance, content is regulated according to one person's, or a handful of people's, notions of propriety. Where there is shared governance, content is regulated according to the consensus of the participants.

We--the participants--run the place, own the place, however one wants to look at it. As it happens, the current membership is happy with the current guidelines about freedom of language and decorum, and that's not likely to change soon; but the ultimate freedom is the the freedom not only to decide, but to shape the decisions.

_________________

Destiny is a rhythm track on which we must improvise.

In some cases, firing the drummer helps.


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