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Member Apathy

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Berhael
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 7:45 pm
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Some of us feel that we're not doing enough, others, that we're doing too much, and we care about our respective positions so much that we end up yelling at each other.

How's that for a B77-in-a-nutshell for those who think we're mindless anti-IE drones controlled by Lidless and Shadowjack? ;)

It's a stressful time. We'll get over things, with time, and patience. :)

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Rodia
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 8:13 pm
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Berhael wrote:

How's that for a B77-in-a-nutshell for those who think we're mindless anti-IE drones controlled by Lidless and Shadowjack? ;)
AHEM excuse me, hello, forget something here? Forget SOMEBODY?

In case you didn't notice, I'm the one who got accused of plotting and rallying people up!!!

po'ed

Some recognition please.

Now...to serious stuff...Eru...deep breaths. Guru doesn't give a shit- that's his business. He will participate in discussions he feels are important. You'll never get 100% of people participating. It's not feasible. But notice- so far the response to your appeal has been very positive. People got off their butts and started discussing things and making decisions. If there are a few who don't care, it doesn't jeopardise anything, and maybe makes it easier to reach some decisions.

You're a great admin. If you have one flaw, it's that you care too much. Slow down...relax. Remember no one has the right, and (I hope) no one is going to blame you for not organising this place on your own. It's not a burden that lies only on your shoulders and you were very right to remind us. It had an effect...so take it easy okay? :hug:

Guru, I think you could have put that just a tad more nicely. But it's hard to be blunt without hurting feelings. We all know that. That's where our stress and arguments come from. In theory, being honest should be the best solution. In practice...what the hell? I'm honest, and someone is hurt.

This takes getting used to...

You're all great people. Be proud.

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Berhael
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 8:21 pm
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Of course Ro! :Q

Beat me up with reeds...

Go on, you know you want to! :mrgreen:

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"The most terrifying day of your life is the day the first one is born [...] Your life, as you know it... is gone. Never to return. But they learn how to walk, and they learn how to talk... and you want to be with them. And they turn out to be the most delightful people you will ever meet in your life."


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Rodia
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 8:34 pm
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Um...nooo...not particularly....

*backs away muttering something about kinky spaniards*

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Berhael
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 8:35 pm
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Bah.
:nono:

:P;)

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"The most terrifying day of your life is the day the first one is born [...] Your life, as you know it... is gone. Never to return. But they learn how to walk, and they learn how to talk... and you want to be with them. And they turn out to be the most delightful people you will ever meet in your life."


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Guruthostirn
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 9:43 pm
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I do have to make myself clearer...

I do give a shit about certain things, and I don't care about others. But in many of the cases that I don't care about I just don't know about. If people are really concerned about member apathy they have to give us reasons to care. That's why little summaries of discussions would be useful. Like it or not some of us don't have time to be in all these discussions; for example, I'm almost entirely off the boards for two straight days. That's Very tough to catch up on these discussions.

Part of the reason I got so abrasive was that I was getting the sense that people want to require that members read every discussion going on on Board 77, and vote on every issue. That really pissed me off...at least on TORC we weren't Required to do anything.

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Estel
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 9:46 pm
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Sorry, I guess I don't see where the problems are either.


One, we're self moderating (unless that changed while I was gone).

Two, the admins are voted in and it's their job to approve members and deal with the technical aspects of the board (unless that changed while I was gone)

Three, Right now, it's invitation only.

Four, we don't have a ToS. Just general advice to be nice to each other.

The only real problems I see on the boards are

a - Not knowing the invite time
b - Not knowing what constitues a majority


I have voted in every thread I can find to vote in - even if it's just to abstain, but honestly, I don't see any problems other than the two I mentioned.

I've seen threads saying, how to organize this, how to organize that, etc etc, but those are threads about issues that will come into play when we actually open our doors, if then.

What I am seeing is that we're turning into a bureaucracy rather than a democracy.

I am very very sorry that you're frustrated Eru, but it can be difficult for me to care about issues that, in my mind, shouldn't even be issues. I'll go and vote abstain on them, but really, I think the board is running along just fine poster wise, and isn't it the posters who matter most?

Take a half hour break, and remember that it's just a message board, and it's one where everyone gets along really well.

All the issues don't have to be solved under your first watch - I can guarantee they won't be. Please don't stress yourself out over it so much :hug: Between all of us, it'll get figured out. :smile:


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EdaintheRanger
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 10:41 pm
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Words of wisdom Estellie!

I would vote more if I had the time to read more. I just don't have it at the moment.

If something looks important then I will at least keep abreast of it.

Chill folks.

Keep up the good work. :mrgreen:

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Eruname
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 11:56 pm
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Guruthostirn wrote:
Part of the reason I got so abrasive was that I was getting the sense that people want to require that members read every discussion going on on Board 77, and vote on every issue. That really pissed me off...at least on TORC we weren't Required to do anything.
I never EVER said that. I just said we have the priveledge to make this board what we want so we all should get involved. Basically I was trying to rally people up a bit, that way they'd not have to come back later and complain about decisions that they hadn't taken part of.

In any case, I'm very sorry that I bothered you all and bothered doing anything at all. Very soon I'll be totally out of the way...for the meantime, I'll just shut up now.


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Rodia
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Posted: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 12:13 am
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Eru...now come on...that's not fair. You can't please everyone but that doesn't mean nobody appreciates what you're doing. Did anyone here say they wanted you to butt out of things, or sit around doing nothing? Guru felt like there was too much pressure on the members, but he didn't say you should buzz off or anything like that...he's entitled to perceiving things differently. And he definitely should be able to explain how he perceives them. You know that. That he got angry over it is a different issue.

It's a hard job you have right now, we know you're stressed, but you know you can't expect everyone to agree immediately. I voted yes, someone voted no, Guru doesn't think it matters. He's not attacking you. He just doesn't think this particular case matters. No big deal. Those that think it matters will work it out. They might think the next problem won't matter, and Guru might feel very strongly about it.

Be the fair elf you are. :)

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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 1:45 am
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I know he wasn't attacking me. I know he has every right to speak his mind just as every other member here does. I hope he continues to do so.

I'm speaking mine now. I feel like I've either made people feel guilty or angered them. Either way, I don't feel like I've been much use except for adding a couple of smileys. When I finally did try to take some sort of action as an admin, it hasn't had the greatest reaction.

I wish I hadn't made this thread. I really do.


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Impenitent
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Posted: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 2:14 am
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Eru! Don't regret it, dear! Expressing your frustration was exactly the right thing to do!

Speaking for myself - you induced no guilt, but did induce me to think about why I was sitting on the fence - not such a bad achievement on your part.


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laureanna
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Posted: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 4:31 am
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Unfortunately, there is always a small group of people with energy and vision who run things for the vast majority who sit back and enjoy the fruits of their labor. I've been on both sides, which is why I've tried to be supportive of you. You are doing a thankless job, but people would only know that if you stopped doing it. So thank you, and thanks to the other people who are making this place possible.

As for those who only lurk, that may be all they have the energy for right now, so I wouldn't worry about them. You can't stop apathy, you know - people just don't care enough about the subject. :P

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Nin
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Posted: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 8:24 am
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Eru, I'm glad you made this thread.

It gave me the occasion to explain my silence over the last days, it gave you the occasion to understand the reasons of non-voting of some people and nothing but for that it was a good thing. It gave Estel the occasion to write words of wisdom.

Many good things....

Which would not have happened without this thread.

Be proud and don't go silent - and great work with the smilies.

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Leoba
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Posted: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 8:55 am
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Estel :hug: Thanks for the perspective. :smile: I am very tempted to print that little list out and stick it to my wall! It's so easy to get bogged down in a load of garbage and forget that really, we're doing okay. Just some of us yell and stamp our feet a bit more than others. :P:mrgreen:


Eru, you are doing a fabulous job. :mrgreen::mrgreen: You are a fabulous admin - not just for the smilies - but because you care enough to give people a kick up the bum and make them aware that their opinion does matter!

If it is running you down that much, take an evening or a day or a weekend entirely away from the computer. Go and spend some chill out time with your husband and the kittens and relax! It is just a few pixels in cyber space, where some pretty cool (IMO :P ) people hang out. It will all work out just fine. :smile:

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 11:36 am
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Moan ... I tried to vote on every topic and before I noticed, I even placed a "Don't know/Abstain" on the Iavas invitation thread :oops:

But then, I even try to comment in some threads with my brain at standby :oops: :oops: :oops: ok, there are others who post threads with a similar state of mind ... :oops: ;) :mrgreen:

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Guruthostirn
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Posted: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 7:03 pm
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First off, I'm glad this thread was opened...And I'm sorry if I seemed angry at you, Eru, that wasn't my intention. There are others I'm currently rather irked at, but you aren't one of them. You raised a valid issue...let me restate it.

There is a problem with getting people involved.

Now, why don't we get past my little rant and work on this problem. As I see it, the biggest problem is that most issues are buried deep in discussions and Only Seen by the few people involved. These people are the ones who are online for insane amounts of time. The rest of us do not have the luxery of reading through pages and pages of discussion. If we could get just a simple block of text saying what the issue people want our voice on it would be fantastic. Stick it in the first post. That way someone who's only got twenty minutes can zip by, read the summary, and vote.

The other problem is We Need To Know What The Problems Are. Estel noted that she could only see two, but I get the feeling that the Admin and the other active discussers see a lot more. Could we have a thread saying "These are the problems facing B77". Maybe even a discussion so you can all decide what they are, and then let the rest of us who can't follow the discussion know about them.

I made a comment about "committee's" somewhere else and got nailed pretty hard for it. But that's exactly what's happened...it's just that the membership of those committee's are open, and the discussions are open. The committee's are made up of the people who see the issues. Show the rest of us the issues and some real action might happen. Just don't expect the people without time to discuss things...just to state their case and vote one way or the other.

Lastly, what exactly is wrong with just wanting to hang out in Discussion and Turf? I guess that's what I felt when I made that comment about TORC and required action...when did this board turn from a place to hang out to an experiment in civic responsibility? That was my comment about anarchism...needing as few rules as possible so you have more time to just do what we want to. I like what someone said...this place is turning into a bureaucracy...does it really, really need all this? Or is it a few people that feel like they need all these rules and guidelines and discussion...

I think that's about it...and if anyone starts complaining about me not being involved, I just blew my whole day's internet time "getting involved"...

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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 7:18 pm
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Guruthostirn wrote:
this place is turning into a bureaucracy...does it really, really need all this? Or is it a few people that feel like they need all these rules and guidelines and discussion...
We're thinking ahead to the future...for when we open this place up. All members here right now are people who can totally handle themselves so we don't need much structure. But that's going to change when we open up. We need to have some sort of guidelines or something to that effect and plans set up for when we have an absolute troll. We're trying to settle this stuff before it happens. So no, we don't need all this right now, but we will in the future...of course it will never be anything like TORC.


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Rodia
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Posted: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 7:28 pm
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Whate Eru said. In order to be able to have fun in the future we need to work out some things about this board now.

And what Guru wrote illustrates very well why we need to do it...so that when, in the future, we have a problem, there will be a method to take care of it and someone who will HAVE to take care of it, in case the community doesn't feel bothered (I'm not criticising that- I don't want everyone to feel like they have a duty here either. That's why in the Mod Decision Thread I keep saying we need someone at the steering wheel, an executive for the members.)

But Guru also said something very important- a list. YES...we need that. It's the simplest solution.

I know some people have already tried to organise the issues, and that's grand of them . :hug: But we should have them all in one place as well.

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Guruthostirn
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Posted: Thu 03 Feb , 2005 1:36 am
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Eru...now those are good problems to deal with. I guess the problem is I haven't seen problems such as those, which seem significant, being dealt with...

As for the problem thread...one moment...

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