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Amending the Charter

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Estel
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 5:30 pm
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That's not true Hal. When I say that the behavior of someone is quite assholish, I am talking about their behavior, not them.

You can have a good person whose actions aren't nice and berate them for those actions without berating them.

Just saying :Wooper:

Also saying, even I thought visons post was a bit overboard, and I'm trying to remain calm and non-judgemental since I have no idea of the situation. But seriouly, I read that post and my first reaction was " :Q Whoa!!! :Q "



and may I repeat from my previous post.....


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halplm
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 5:42 pm
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Yes, you can condemn someone's actions (there's a lot of that going around), but are you telling me there's a difference between saying:

Hal is a fuckin asshole

and

Hal always acts like a fucking asshole

???

If you sit down to post something, and you want to make someone hurt, you can do it in a LOT of different ways. Even if you don't want to hurt, you can still be mean, and nasty and that person can be hurt. Maybe this is the root of my problem. I feel hurt every time someone says I started all the problems... I feel like I'm being attacked.

So I guess the question is, where does the judgement lie? In the intent of the poster? Or in the effect on the person who is attacked, or who's actions are attacked?

Right now (sorry for the quick aside), I feel like I'm always singled out as having intent that I don't, and am dealt with accordingly... but whenever I feel like something has had an effect on me that hurts, there's nothing I can do, because everyone assumes other people's intent is somehow all nice and fluffy.

If I were a ranger, I would ask Vison to edit her post, and if she didn't, I would remove it. Yes, even with the charter as it is. I would worry more about the person who was being smeared, than the person who did the smearing, and if someone wanted to follow the charter and call into question that decision, they certainly could... but maybe then, no one's feeligns would have been hurt, and everyone would have calmed down, and everyone could apologize and forget about it.

Or, if nothign was done, someone could feel like there was nothing they could do and lose it.

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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Amending the Charter
Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 6:40 pm
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Lali wrote:
1) We need to make the charter more flexible for the rangers to do their job of keeping the peace on the board.

2) We should consider making the charter amendment process a little bit easier.

3) We need to make continued disruption of the board by a member a punishable offense. I'm not wording that very well; it's just a fragment of an idea at this point, but I think you get the idea.
I agree with Lali. :yes:

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Riverthalos
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 7:12 pm
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My impression has always been that the Rangers were meant to be relatively weak in comparison to mods on other boards. This was a deliberate choice made by those that wrote the Charter, as a reaction against what was widely perceived as abuse of power by mods on TORC.

Insult comes down to perception, both online and IRL. Offense can be given without intention. Insults can be very deliberately dished out and altogether missed by the intended target. Calm discussion can sort these things out. Message boards are good like that because you really do have the luxury of walking away.

hal, you have a noted tendency to, when you feel insulted, to explode. This is why you get the proverbial finger pointed at you so often. You're not the only offender, but you're the noisiest. You've also exploded with enough frequency that you've developed a reputation. Is the little pigeon-hole you've been shoved into fair? Not really. It's never fair. But it happens. You can redeem yourself though. It'll be lots of work, and there will be unfairness on the way. You're going to have to toe the line for a very long time, but you can redeem yourself. I'm speaking as one who has had to earn redemption in real life. It's not easy. It's never easy, and it really sucks because it feelsl like you're bearing the burden for mistakes that weren't necessarily yours. But, like I said before, fairness isn't always part of the game. It should be, but it's not.

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 7:46 pm
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yes, that was the intent of the original writers.

Part of the whole idea behind "starting from scratch" is recognizing that what those people needed 3 years ago, is nothing like what we need now.

This is the problem with creating a strict document to govern things. documents don't change, people and communities do.

It would be my suggestion, that the "rules" not be written as rules to be enforced... but that they are written as concepts we all want to follow. There should never be the chance to say "technically I didn't break that rule, so you can't do anything about it."

The reaction to TORC was to minimize ranger's powers. The idea was that members themselves would police each other, and we could all be friends and ask nicely to not say such nasty things about each other. THIS has proven completely impossible. Everyone is too stubborn, and will push "the rules" to the limit, and not back down when asked.

Instead of limiting ranger's power, it should be broad, and freely used... but there should be HIGH accountability for such action. If a ranger is involved in an argument, they should refrain from doing ANYthing. If a ranger acts unfairly or out of line, then it should result in them stepping down quickly.

the board needs moderation, but that moderation cannot be absolute dictatorship.

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vison
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 9:14 pm
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halplm wrote:
the board needs moderation, but that moderation cannot be absolute dictatorship.
Anything less like a dictatorship than B77 is hard to imagine.

halplm, you are not ever going to get what you want. Ever. Until you realize that you are the source of your own misery, nothing will ever change. Amending this charter is not going to do it. The change has to be in YOU.

You have dragged us all through yet another shitstorm. As soon as you are confronted, as soon as anyone points out that you are out of line, you start whinging and whining that you are "misunderstood" and that people are picking on you and it's not fair and people are jerks and you just want to be nice and if the moderators weren't so icky and the rules are not fair and people just hate you and won't listen and it's always the same.

Yes, indeed: it is always the same because YOU are always the same.

This weekend I will be fortunate enough to spend three days with 3 other B77ers. You may be sure that your name will pop up. Yes, it will, there is no use pretending otherwise.

"Oh, he's probably a nice guy in person," I might say. "After all, TheMary says so and she's a great kid and so he probably is pretty nice in person."

But probably, to be perfectly honest, I am likely to say, "I'm sick of the place and his crap and after this m00t I probably won't be at B77 much any more."

I am not under any illusions that my presence or non-presence is going to be the downfall of B77. And I'm not leaving in a snit. Just resigned to the inevitable.


















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TheMary
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 9:32 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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I think that if a person does go on a rampage (as I like to call it) then rangers should be able to toss that person in the Bikeracks/Jury Room for a certain period of time until further action can be taken. And the only people allowed to post there are Rangers that way outside instigators/helpers (you say potato I say po-tay-to) can't further the rampage.

Stellie :love:

If we were to start over and it might not be that hard it we are gonna simplify things then let's do it. Estel started out with a simple platform that most people can agree with :).

Oh and Stellie :love: :kiss:

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Estel
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 9:34 pm
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:D :hug: :love: :devil: :love:


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TheMary
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 9:43 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Estel wrote:
:D :hug: :love: :devil: :love:
Excuse me but I have to go change my knickers :devil:

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Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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halplm
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 9:51 pm
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vison, I think you are reading more into what I am saying in this thread than I am.

the statement you quoted, was me discussing how things SHOULD be, not how they are.
Quote:
You have dragged us all through yet another shitstorm. As soon as you are confronted, as soon as anyone points out that you are out of line, you start whinging and whining that you are "misunderstood" and that people are picking on you and it's not fair and people are jerks and you just want to be nice and if the moderators weren't so icky and the rules are not fair and people just hate you and won't listen and it's always the same.
Since you are assuming that I am whining and whining and claiming to be misunderstood and so forth... that's what you see. That's not the case.

I have been complaining about a perception of me that is incorrect. This is not people misunderstanding me, this is people actively thinking something about me that is false. I have not complained about the moderators, except the one directly involved. You are remembering past instances, and projecting them onto this current totally unrelated discussion.

Now, if I would make a suggestion, it would be not to seek out places to chastise me because you want to, and instead engage in the debate at hand, or not. I would argue that this thread hasn't had any drama about me in it until you brought it in. twice now.

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TheMary
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 9:57 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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hal it's hard for people NOT to think certain things for very simple concept of if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...then it's probably a duck. At this point this blow up is the last straw for most which is why it's harder for you to get through to people :). Keep that in mind should you get frustrated.

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Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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halplm
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 9:59 pm
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I'm not frustrated right now, because people are actually talking... they're not ignoring and assuming, and attacking... well most of them.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 11:14 pm
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Well I hope I get talked about, and I hope its all bad. :devil:

As for amending the charter...meh. Its been gone through time and time again. Those who originally made it in the first place are no longer here. Should there be changes, you bet, but the damn well better apply to everyone equally.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Thu 20 Sep , 2007 11:24 pm
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I keep seeing the phrase "those who made the charter aren't here anymore", and I find it not only horribly incorrect but pretty much pointless.

If you look at the list of people that participated in the charter, there are some of those people kicking around. And if you look at the people posting today you will see all of the people responsible for ultimately putting the charter into place.

It isn't that the philosophies on the whole are greatly different now than they were then, but like anything else it was never meant to be set in stone and was meant to be adjusted as needed.

It is a rather large pain to change things because that was the only way to give every good standing member of this board a say in what goes on here. The flip side would be to have power vested in a few willing hands. There are no other choices.

The charter is probably more involved than it ever needed to be, and probably glossed over things that seem common sense today.

I just caution everyone to stop and think before making any giant changes. You don't want to make it too easy to change things and you don't want to give too much power to a few people. You want everyone here to have a say in policies and yet you want rangers to have some powers.

Be careful what you wish for and realize the inevitable from all of those wishes.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 21 Sep , 2007 12:10 am
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Most of those who wrote the charter do not participate here frequently anymore. Worded better for you, Holby?

I think this is a bad idea, but then I've tried once before so I'm biased.

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 21 Sep , 2007 12:17 am
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
Most of those who wrote the charter do not participate here frequently anymore.
Most of the people posting here are people who ratified it.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 21 Sep , 2007 12:23 am
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Yes. And the distinction is still "wrote".

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 21 Sep , 2007 12:34 am
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Alandriel, Alatar, Alassante-Estel, Anthriel, Axordil, Cerin, Din, Eruname, Ethel, Faramond, Farawen, Holbytla, IdylleSeethes, Impenitent, Jnyusa, laureanna, Leoba, LordMorningstar, MaidenoftheShieldarm, Nin, Primula_Baggins, Silwen, TheLidlessEyes, TORN, truehobbit, Voronwe_the_Faithful


I wouldn't say most first of all, and secondly who wrote the charter is meaningless. This current board ratified it.
And that is pretty pointless as well.

There were ways in which the charter was written to insure the community at large had a strong say in what went on and how. I don't see how that has changed.

The charter was meant to be difficult to amend so it wouldn't be done lightly or by too few people. I don't see how that has changed.

Yes I do think it needs to be amended and I do think the work should be put in to amend it according to the needs today. It isn't necessary or meaningful to scrap it and start over, and I highly doubt people care enough to put the time and effort in to changing it.

The alternative is a vastly different structure where there are actually people with power to make decisions. You can't have it both ways.
Either the power lies with the community at large or with a few people in power.

There is obviously a need to amend and to refine what is there. Though I find it unlikely there will be enough agreement to actually change anything.


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The Watcher
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Posted: Fri 21 Sep , 2007 12:52 am
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I think once tempers and emotions calm down, we can set about using the existing charter to amend what we would like to see as more flexibility. I don't think we need to agonize over every word and nuance for months, all we want to do is introduce a few tweaks.

(forgive me, but I worked with lawyers for years, so maybe that is why I sort of prefer "plain speaking" as Sam might say.)

This place STILL works folks, maybe this recent event has helped clear the air a bit and let us see what shortcomings we still have. (Puts my way too short hair up into silly little Pollyanna braids and starts dancing around the town square with an ice cream cone. :D)

Seriously, let us take a look at what is not working and use what we have to fix it. That seems like a very logical thing to do from my POV. If the consensus is nothing needs to be fixed, so be it.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 21 Sep , 2007 12:54 am
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Made in this case says to me those who physically typed it out, not those who ratified it, though a case could be made (probably typed out) to include ratification.

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