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tinwe
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 3:50 am
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tolkienpurist wrote:
“...based on your behavior, you have no place in this community....”
Sorry to take part of your post out of its context nel, but this is the reason I am uncomfortable with the idea of banning a member of the community. I don’t think any member or group of members has the right to say that another member has no place here. I might feel differently if this place did in fact resemble real life society, with people coming and going and the place growing and changing constantly. But the fact is, this is a fairly small and insular, and close knit, group, and no matter how much we may not like any one person’s behavior we simply cannot say that person has no place in this community.

Throughout the brief history of b77 there have been three incidents that I can think of that have warranted consideration of the sort of drastic measures being considered here. The recent one that precipitated this discussion, another one that involved two members who had an extreme dislike for each other’s political beliefs (not to mention an extreme dislike for each other), and one last incident that may not be so well known that involved someone who was not really part of the community but came here to post in some of the conspiracy theory threads. Only in that last case, where the person was not really a member of the community would I have considered banning to be appropriate. And we already have measures in place in the charter for doing just that in that sort of case.

But regarding the other two cases, and especially the recent one, can anyone here honestly say that any of those people “have no place in this community”? I know I can’t, regardless of my own feelings on the subject.

You mentioned that expelling someone for a repeated pattern of unacceptable behavior is part of any workable human society, but I would argue that incarceration is not the same thing as banishment. In the one case the person is still living within the workings of the societal system, whereas in the other, well, I can’t help but think of the scene from Mad Max where they tied him up, put the giant clown head on him, set him on a horse and sent him out into the desert alone. Granted, being kicked off of a messageboard may not seem quite so bad, but when that MB is a huge part of your life than the analogy might fit.

I would also like to add that, speaking as a current Ranger and as someone who has served as a Ranger several times, and have had no reason to regret doing it, I have no intentions of ever getting involved in any deliberations to even consider banning a member of this community. I’m a rank changer and a thread mover and that’s about it. I have no desire to pass judgement on anybody in my capacity as a Ranger.

:cheers:

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vison
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 4:31 am
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I understand your feelings, tinwe, but I guess I'm harder-hearted than you are. We are a small community and it is just because we are a small community that we are vulnerable to disruptive behavior. I can think of no good reason to tolerate it.

True that we should all just ignore it. And I guess that would work as well: sending the person "to Coventry" is almost like a ban. But sure as hell there would not be a universal refusal to respond to attempts to start a row.

I don't know. It's not my decision to make, but if it was, I think there comes a point when the offending member should be asked to step outside and find another place to hang out.

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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 5:58 am
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tinwë wrote:
Sorry to take part of your post out of its context nel, but this is the reason I am uncomfortable with the idea of banning a member of the community.
You did not take it out of context. That was indeed the thrust of my post.
Quote:
But the fact is, this is a fairly small and insular, and close knit, group, and no matter how much we may not like any one person’s behavior we simply cannot say that person has no place in this community.
It is precisely because we are small and insular that we can and should have the ability to say that. We are a contained group of friends who have known each other online for years; those of us who are left at this point intend to stay for a good long while; we welcome and integrate unknown, new members into our ranks sparingly. If those new members behave poorly, they are possibly banned (as you point out) or more easily ignored. It is those of us whose membership dates back 3, 5, 7 years whose bad behavior has the potential to impact the community as a whole.

If you, tinwë, or vison, or Lali, or me, or any of the others in this thread were to begin multiple threads with titles like "I AM NOT AN INSTIGATOR!!!", begin threads solely to insult the members and administration of other boards, threaten to sue people who disagree with you (sorry to keep referencing it...it's still my personal favorite), etc etc etc...it would have a profound effect on this board if you acted like that, tinwë, or if I did - particularly when the nonsense repeated itself over a period of months or years. And it is because our behavior would have a greater effect on the community than a newbie's that the community should have a greater, not a lesser, ability to respond to it.

With respect to SF and C_G (sorry, I hate dancing around names when everyone knows who we are talking about): their disputes were substantive. They primarily kept them to the correct subject threads. They definitely hurled personal insults, but they gave as good as they got and rarely whined to others about them (that I recall.) Some complained that the "libertarian debate" spilled into other substantive threads - but again, that was a substantive position (cf "the fucking HoF people are running a dictatorship so they can run everything the exact way they want to while blowing off their own rules," which has nothing to do with this board or any substantive discussion on it.) And on the rare occasion that the libertarian debaters truly spammed the board with their dispute (e.g. SF started a thread that roughly said "Having a wonderful fantastic day" to glory in his scoring a point over C_G), they were called on it and usually stopped. I wouldn't put that into the same category at all. They didn't bother me personally at all, and I definitely don't think that anything they did was a bannable offense.
Quote:
You mentioned that expelling someone for a repeated pattern of unacceptable behavior is part of any workable human society, but I would argue that incarceration is not the same thing as banishment. In the one case the person is still living within the workings of the societal system, whereas in the other, well, I can’t help but think of the scene from Mad Max where they tied him up, put the giant clown head on him, set him on a horse and sent him out into the desert alone. Granted, being kicked off of a messageboard may not seem quite so bad, but when that MB is a huge part of your life than the analogy might fit.
Well, a more exact analogy to incarceration would be this: we could ban the offender from reading or posting in any private forums, additionally restrict his/her posting in any public forums, and open up a "jail" forum for the offender, in which they could post but in which no other members would participate. So that way, they'd still be within the societal system. I...think we'd effectively be doing the same thing as banning them. ;) But in the interest of exactness, I suppose more exact analogies would be to a school expulsion or religious excommunication.

Now, I will be very direct. I believe we are dealing with a situation of one, here. Other than hal (and we cannot honestly pretend that we are not talking about him at least in part), who are we talking about? Why are we having this conversation at all? When hal announced that he was leaving this board (and to his credit, for the first time actually managed to stop posting for more than a month), why was there any reason to drag all of this back up publically rather than for those who still had things to say to approach hal privately? And if there was a need to address hal publically (in a forum he had left, to all outward appearances), then why are we now engaging in this charade of talking about hal, adverting to hal's situation, concerning ourselves with other people who might behave like hal, and yet insisting that this is not a conversation about hal. If not him, than what? Are we anticipating that we will experience a similar pattern of unconscionably bad behavior by other long standing members? That we will be flooded with an influx of new, poorly behaved members? Or is this to deal with the possibility that hal himself may return? If there is any likelihood of the third possibility, I suppose it is a reasonable discussion to have (and I am not sure whether this discussion makes that possibility more or less likely.) But unless we are talking about hal - in which case I suppose we might as well be honest and say that that is what we are doing - I don't understand who we are talking about.

If we are genuinely planning for the possibility of someone other than hal launching us into that sort of protracted drama, then...is this really the most likely eventuality that we need to be spending time on? Why not focus on the far more pressing problem of people gradually drifting into the West, and thinning the numbers of an already small crowd?

I wasn't supposed to respond again today, huh. That worked out really well for me. :oops:


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TheMary
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 6:51 am
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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I can't believe some of the things you are implying and saying TP. If you look at all of the board blow ups the same people are involved every time.

Cerin
halplm
TheMary
Jewelsong
vison
Holby
Yov
Alatar
etc etc etc...

And the ONLY person that has gotten shit is hal and it's unfuckingbelievable that you can sit by and say "Yep hal is the one that started this". WRONG WRONG WRONG! Just because hal doesn't hide his meaning in condescending remarks doesn't make what some others have said right. And the baiters are just as much to blame as the instigator. If you don't feed a fire it will die but NOOOOOOOOOOO some of you just have to say something back because you know you'll get away scott free.


This last blow up was so lame I feel sick to my stomach. It was straight out of kindergarden. If Eruname would have just asked hal to clarify ALL OF YOU would have known he didn't mean anything by the two fucking words he posted. But NO everyone thinks the worst and jumps to conclusions which is okay?! I don't think so. Not trusting someone is even more reason to question instead of ASSUME and over react Eru and Jewel.

There, names happy? Want some more because there be more where that came from yarg!!!! If you want to ban people start with me because I am fed up with this bullshit. I have shown great restraint and the dam is about to break.



:rage:

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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 7:44 am
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TM:

We don't see eye to eye on this topic. I suspect we never will. I hesitate to say too much more lest I be the one to "cause the dam to break" if it has not already. You and I have generally gotten along, and I'd rather not stop that now (if possible.)

You are defending a friend in every way you can. I admire that. I'm not saying that condescendingly - I really do admire that. I wonder how many friends I have who would speak out so forcefully on my behalf if others were talking about me (however justified or not the others were.) That's pretty awesome.

I do not think any sole person is to blame for all of the drama we have experienced on the board. Some of the people you have named contributed their share. I have contributed my share, or perhaps exceeded it. But the fact that everyone may have specks in their eyes doesn't change the reality that some people have logs. As individuals, we would do well to take the advice of some random Jewish rabbi from about 2000 years ago ;), and worry about our own specks before others' logs. But as a board without moderators, we are also our own governance structure - and in that capacity, we need to draw a distinction between specks and logs. We have the right to recognize when someone has disproportionately affected how much drama we have around here. So as to avoid any accusations that I'm implying anything: it will surprise no one at this point to learn that I believe that hal is one of the few people (not the only person) who has had that sort of disproportionate effect. The others I am thinking of no longer post actively on b77.

I share Ang's opinion that "hal's position is unique only because his behavior is unique." He then moved on to talk about a "larger issue." What I was questioning with my previous post is simply whether there IS a "larger issue." I am simply stating that - unless hal chooses to post here again - I do not expect to see another incident similar to the last complete meltdown he had here (the one you termed "lame"). I don't think we'll see it from Jewel, from Alatar, from yov, from vison, from Holby, or from you. So again I ask - you and the others - is this a thread to discuss what happens if hal chooses to return? Or was Lidless' bumping of the "Banning hal" thread, and this spinoff, simply the catalyst for us to discuss how to treat other potential miscreants? And are these hypothetical miscreants really worth investing a lot of time in right now?


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Angbasdil
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 10:52 am
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Why are we discussing this now? Hopefully so that we can look back and learn. To that end, I'd respectfully ask that any discussion of hal specifically be done in the thread that already exists for that purpose. (Using hal as an example of a larger point in this thread is probably inevitable however.)

As to whether the hypothetical miscreants are worth a lot of time right now - probably not. Which is why I don't advocate any changes to the rules or the charter. We (each of us) just need to look back at our own behavior and figure out if we allowed ourselves to become part of the problem.


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TheMary
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 11:13 am
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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My anger has subsided and without casualties woot!

I won't discuss hal anymore for now because it seems no matter what I say it falls on deaf ears or ears that don't want to hear it anymore.

So I shall put in my two cents about a solution to dealing with disruptive people. I'm all for tossing disrupters into the bikeracks until a situation can be discussed further by the rangers and ultimately the board.

I don't think we should permanently ban people. Who are we to be judge and jury on a message board? If someone is being an asshat ignore them and do NOT engage that person. Give people the benefit of the doubt and ask before assuming. I could go on and on about common sensical behavior but I won't.

_________________

Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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yovargas
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 12:29 pm
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tolkienpurist wrote:
(e.g. SF started a thread that roughly said "Having a wonderful fantastic day" to glory in his scoring a point over C_G)
I find that deeply offensive - SF never scored a point on anybody.


;)


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Axordil
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 3:15 pm
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I go to message boards to have a good time chatting with friends. If something happens that prevents me from having a good time, or if I have to expend unusual effort to do so, it makes me less likely to want to go there, so long as there are other ways of staying in contact with said friends.

That said, there's more than one way of sucking the fun out of a place.

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vison
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 3:32 pm
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Who are we to be judge and jury?

We ARE the judge and jury. It's our place. Who else is there?

A society or group that will not deal with a problem is doomed. We might be doomed anyway, but I think the place is worth trying to save.

Banning one member will not kill us. But allowing that one member to drive people away sure as hell will.

In the one particular case we aren't speaking about, an awful lot of people went an awful long way out of their way to try to be understanding and compassionate, to give good advice, to tell the unmentionable one that we care. What was the upshot?

To be really crude, we got used like toilet paper.

Like axordil, I come here to have fun, not to be presented with tantrums, rage, or unreasonable demands. Nearly everyone who has commented on the unmentioned issue made the same comments: adult persons who function well in this and other societies saw the same behaviors and had the same responses.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 3:43 pm
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jewelsong
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 3:48 pm
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Ara-anna
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 3:51 pm
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jewelsong
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 3:54 pm
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Ara-anna
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 3:59 pm
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Axordil
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 4:00 pm
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Quote:
So the 'instigators and trolls' are basically gone, yet all three boards are slow and people are not coming back in droves.
Why would someone want to come back? It's not just a matter of individuals being here or not being here, it's a matter of the experience having left such a sour taste in your mouth that you simply have no wish to be a part of it any more.

That's why I never went back to TORC. I simply had no use for it, because the whole experience of being there had come to suck. Part of that was due to individuals, but part was due to the approach TORC had (blindfolded whack-a-mole) towards dealing with those individuals.

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Faramond
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 4:15 pm
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I, the double-secret uber Ranger, with powers a mere fraction of the awesome onslaught I shall reveal today, hereby lock this thread.

*lock*

Have a nice day! :D


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Angbasdil
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 5:40 pm
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Ax wrote:
That's why I never went back to TORC. I simply had no use for it, because the whole experience of being there had come to suck. Part of that was due to individuals, but part was due to the approach TORC had (blindfolded whack-a-mole) towards dealing with those individuals.
Which is why I tend to oppose making it easier to ban people - I'd rather not give anyone a mole-whacking stick. Now I've never been a Ranger, so if those who have been say that they need this tool in their toolbox, I'm not gonna fight it too hard. But it's not the ideal solution.

See, here's the thing - the minute we make something "official", then it has to be "fair". And then some asshole will be able to read it and figure out exactly where the line is and dance as close to it as he can without crossing it. But I personally am under no compunction whatsoever to be fair. I can ban someone from my own personal messageboard experience for any reason I want. Or for no reason at all. It's all up to me. I am Master of My Domain. :D
vison wrote:
A society or group that will not deal with a problem is doomed. We might be doomed anyway, but I think the place is worth trying to save.

Banning one member will not kill us. But allowing that one member to drive people away sure as hell will.
This is a bullshit proposition, a false choice. We're not forced to choose between banning one person or sacrificing the board. We have another option available in dealing with a problem like this in the future. We can all grow up, get over ourselves and be responsible for our own behavior. If we can't, as a community, do that, then yeah, we probably are doomed.

Which is why I keep hammering on the same point, probably to the exent that I'm starting to really annoy everybody. But it's still true. Drama is a team sport. And as for one person driving people away, one person can't do that any more than one person can disrupt the board. One person can agitate, but he's irrelevant until others allow themselves to become agitated by him. It's the resultant atmosphere that drives people away.

And when you get down to it, they weren't really "driven" away. They chose to leave.
Quote:
In the one particular case we aren't speaking about, an awful lot of people went an awful long way out of their way to try to be understanding and compassionate, to give good advice, to tell the unmentionable one that we care. What was the upshot?

To be really crude, we got used like toilet paper.

Like axordil, I come here to have fun, not to be presented with tantrums, rage, or unreasonable demands. Nearly everyone who has commented on the unmentioned issue made the same comments: adult persons who function well in this and other societies saw the same behaviors and had the same responses.
That may well be another lesson to learn from this. Maybe some people were too compassionate for too long at first, and that's why they reacted so strongly in a negative way in the end. A good rule of thumb is that when you start to get pissed off at someone you're supposed to be helping, you've done just about all the good you're emotionally capable of doing and need to remove yourself from the situation for a while.


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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 5:43 pm
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Angbasdil wrote:
Maybe some people were too compassionate for too long at first, and that's why they reacted so strongly in a negative way in the end.
Ang, this is a brilliant insight. Absolutely. And that is why I don't think I have anything (non-repetitive) to say...because I keep reacting in a strong, negative way at this point. I only know of one specific situation to which any of this applies, and on that one my mind is most firmly made up. So I think you're right that it might be easier to ban anyone else from "my personal messageboard experience," and I shouldn't generalize too much from the one specific case to any other.


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vison
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Posted: Tue 13 Nov , 2007 6:58 pm
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Angbasdil is perfectly right.

But things are never that simple!!!

At any rate, the discussion has been worthwhile and I believe I have said all I care to say.

Except for this: if a person is banned, that person has a grievance and there is nothing so precious as a grievance. It has a status all its own. One can carry it about like a Ring.

But if a person was REALLY ignored, I think that would be more painful. Being sent to Coventry is a fate worse than death.

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