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Matters concerning democracy (the poster)

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Eruname
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 1:24 am
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Alatar wrote:
It seems a bit ironic that the people who are complaining about the hearing prolonging the drama are actually creating more drama than the hearing.
So sorry to offend.

I'm removing the posts and then some. My feelings toward this place haven't been positive for a long time now. Individually, there are a lot of great people here but collectively, it's just not working for me personally anymore.

So sorry to disturb and best of luck with the process.

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vison
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 5:31 am
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I am with Holbytla on this.

You can add me to the jury pool.

There is a principle at stake here. If we don't take action to defend B77, this sort of thing can - and very likely will - happen again. Each time it does, we are made weaker.

The charter may be a sledgehammer, all right, but this problem is not a mosquito, it is a nest of hornets.

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halplm
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 8:01 am
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And it's happened what... twice in 3 years?

oh boy, I'm stressed about the havoc it causes...

Or wait... are we expanding this to include more than the drive-by troll?

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Lidless
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 1:31 pm
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I'm *so* not posting in this thread.


































Oh fuck.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 4:49 pm
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Hal, whatever do you mean by that?









By the way, everyone go to the chi-town moot.

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halplm
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 7:09 pm
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What do I mean? I mean that this is not some huge problem that happens all the time. What are people talking about when they say that?

The only thing I can think of is that there is ANOTHER huge problem that people want to deal with, say... board-wide disruptions in general... that they want to be able to exact harsher punishments for...

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 7:19 pm
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Not harsher punishments, hal, just possibly some kind of punishment. Currently, there is no punishment or deterrent or consequence (choose your word) available. Some people wanted you to be banned. Some didn't want to see that (ever for anyone). Some didn't want to see that for you or any other member of our family. But many, obviously, wanted some kind of consequence for your actions.

If people feel confinement to the Bike Racks till you cool off is sufficient, then so be it. Many did not see it that way. So the discussion was, "Do we want to consider some kind of consequence for this repeated behavior?"

But perhaps the answer was before us all the time--a hearing should have been called.

???? Not sure, just trying to clarify things as I see them and experienced them as a ranger during several of the times there have been issues with you and others.

Lali

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halplm
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 8:08 pm
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so you're saying that we are talking about more than a drive-by troll?

And there are punishments. Dragging someone through a hearing and deciding SOME punishment has to be handed down because you went through all the trouble to do a hearing... is plenty bad.

And I'm the only one that can speak to that.

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 9:55 pm
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I think we're talking about both. Or maybe only I am. That's entirely possible.

A punishment was handed down to you not because we "went through all the trouble to do a hearing." It was handed down because a majority of the jurors felt you were guilty.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec , 2007 7:33 am
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I don't understand why you, hal, are surprised that a punishment would follow a hearing, especially one that fault is found. A sentencing follows a guilty verdict in a real life trial. No one ever says, "well, wasn't the trial bad enough?"

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Anthriel
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec , 2007 2:30 pm
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Actually, hal, all of the jurors felt you were guilty. Lali voted "not guilty" because she thought the charter was unclear about what a "pattern of behavior" meant. But she did think you were harrassing Cerin.

So, yes. The process was completed, and a punishment was advised. A VERY mild punishment, I must say, and in acknowledgement of the fact that your behavior did not happen in a vacuum, that more people were involved than just you, I (and others) elected to share that punishment with you. We did not gang up on you, as you so often see when you look around. Remember? You were not alone. People, including me, were acknowledging not only the point that you were behaving in a way the board did not approve of, but that you were not alone in that behavior. Do you remember that at all?

I still have people unhappy with me for making that gesture of inclusiveness with you. I've experienced some apparently permanent personal fallout from that choice. And I will never again be involved in such a process. I remember having someone tell me that they were "ashamed" of me for my decisions in that affair. That makes it very sad for me, and oh-so not worth it.

But was it for nothing? Will you never remember the times that people did try to be "fair" to you? People who care about you, who care about the board, and are trying to make choices that reflect that?

This is not you vs. everyone else. This is not about how no one is ever fair to you. Many people have tried to make it clear that you are important to us, and yes, others have expressed frustration with you.

Sometimes I just feel that the only voices you give any weight to are the ones that you disagree with. Do the rest of us not count?


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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec , 2007 3:15 pm
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Anthriel wrote:
Actually, hal, all of the jurors felt you were guilty. Lali voted "not guilty" because she thought the charter was unclear about what a "pattern of behavior" meant. But she did think you were harrassing Cerin.
That's true, Anthy. I just didn't think there was enough to say it was a pattern of behavior, and I also thought that Cerin was just as much at fault as hal in that particular case. However, she was not on trial because no one called for a hearing against her.
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So, yes. The process was completed, and a punishment was advised. A VERY mild punishment, I must say, and in acknowledgement of the fact that your behavior did not happen in a vacuum, that more people were involved than just you, I (and others) elected to share that punishment with you. We did not gang up on you, as you so often see when you look around. Remember? You were not alone. People, including me, were acknowledging not only the point that you were behaving in a way the board did not approve of, but that you were not alone in that behavior. Do you remember that at all?
I had forgotten that. :neutral:
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I still have people unhappy with me for making that gesture of inclusiveness with you. I've experienced some apparently permanent personal fallout from that choice. And I will never again be involved in such a process. I remember having someone tell me that they were "ashamed" of me for my decisions in that affair. That makes it very sad for me, and oh-so not worth it.
What?! Are you serious? :rage: :rage: Oh that makes me so angry!

You know, lots of people here are more than willing to give their opinions, which is fine, good, and acceptable, but I have to say that a lot of people are talking out of their asses. I'm sorry to be crude, but if you've never been a ranger and had to deal with a sticky situation (or if you've never been involved in a hearing and had to deal with all of that mess), then you need to weigh your words more carefully.

:(

I can't believe someone would still be holding a grudge against you for that, Anthy. :rage: :rage: :rage: :rage:

<bites tongue--hard!!!>

:hug: for Anthy.


Lali

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halplm
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec , 2007 3:17 pm
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The rest count, or I wouldn't still be here. you're not going to convince me that that hearing was appropriate, fair, or the punishment was appropriate or fair, but that's really not a similar situation to this one anyway, so it's beside the point.

I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop with all this... start handing out temporary bans because a poster shows up, makes a few posts out of line and leaves... and the next thing you know, a few people claim massive personal insult, and start dragging people through hearings just because they don't like them.

Sometimes a case should be thown out before it's started.

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Anthriel
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec , 2007 3:40 pm
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:hug: Lali. Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything. It really was my decision, and the repercussions of that decision are mine to bear. It's not like I'm suffering, or anything. I still have people like you. :love:

Hal, I am very saddened. :( When you cannot even acknowledge the positive energy that people have expended on your behalf, when you cannot even acknowledge it, then those efforts were wasted. I wasted my time, my energy, and have acquired an apparently permanent negative reputation in some quarters because I did what I thought was right for you-- and for the board. Wasted.

Although: I would do it again. I thought it was fair, and right. I would do it again.
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you're not going to convince me that that hearing was appropriate, fair, or the punishment was appropriate or fair, but that's really not a similar situation to this one anyway, so it's beside the point.
I'm not sure if the hearing was appropriate. I didn't call it. It was what it was. As someone who had pledged my time in the jury pool, should my time and efforts be needed, I felt compelled to deal with this thing, this onerous, ugly thing, that had been handed to me (and others).

I will tell you it was as fair as was possible. Your "punishment" (10 days barred from the Business Forum, right?) was extremely mild. As I recall, you just went to other forums and continued to object to everything, so the goal of keeping your disruptive comments under wraps, at least briefly, was not served.


Hal, you will always be important to me. When you found out I had cancer, you were amazing. You were supportive on the board and off, and showed me a gentle, caring, compassionate side of your nature that had me a little sw00ny over you, truth be told. You were awesome, and when I leaned on you heavily, you came back for more, with love and kindess. I will never forget that.

But I am disappointed that you forget the things I, and others, have done for you.


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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec , 2007 4:10 pm
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Anthriel wrote:
:hug: Lali. Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything. It really was my decision, and the repercussions of that decision are mine to bear. It's not like I'm suffering, or anything. I still have people like you. :love:
No, I think you should have the freedom to discuss this. Honestly, so many of us on the jury felt like we needed to walk on eggshells about the whole thing.
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Although: I would do it again. I thought it was fair, and right. I would do it again.
As would I. It was what it was. You hindered your own case, hal. I do remember that. By choosing to not participate with us in any way, you tied our hands. I remember being very frustrated by that, especially as I felt that you were not the only one culpable. We tried to get you to cooperate, to give us something, anything to work with, but you wouldn't. I know you felt you were doing the right thing at the time in protest to the process itself.

But. :neutral: Well, things turned out the way they did. Your punishment was mild. You had Anthy (and I think others, too) who took your punishment alongside of you as a show of support.

What I can't believe is someone who'd still be holding a grudge against Anthy for that decision.

It still infuriates me. :rage:

Lali

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halplm
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec , 2007 4:26 pm
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halplm wrote:
The rest count, or I wouldn't still be here.
I meant this to acknowledge it. I do appreciate what people did, but at the time I was rather upset. Obviously the whole thing still bugs me. At some point there were hearings called by me for others... but everyone begged me to back down and not cause a big problem... and woohoo for me... I did. Does anyone remember that?

I'm sorry you've had to deal with people holding grudges, Anthy... that's not right in any way.

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Anthriel
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Posted: Tue 04 Dec , 2007 4:45 pm
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hal wrote:
I'm sorry you've had to deal with people holding grudges, Anthy... that's not right in any way.
Thanks, hal. :hug: But people feel what they feel. I did step into the center of attention for that one, and took a bit of a stand (something I don't often do, really, because I'm never all that thrilled to have people unhappy with me).

As it turned out, some people WERE unhappy with me. But if I would ask latitude to feel what I feel, here on the boards, (and I often do!) I need to offer it to others. It's okay. It's not my favorite happy place to be, but people have a right to feel what they feel.

I still say: I would do it again. When you have to take a stand, all you can do is try to act according to whatever internal standards of fairness you have on board. I did what I did, in accordance with what I knew at the time, and what I felt was fair. I would do it again.

But this really isn't about me. :)


hal wrote:
halplm wrote:
The rest count, or I wouldn't still be here.
I meant this to acknowledge it. I do appreciate what people did, but at the time I was rather upset. Obviously the whole thing still bugs me.
Of course you were upset! And that's why I didn't badger you with it at the time*. I have not had the same experiences you have had, but I have been edited, in my opinion, unfairly. It still rankles. I understand the latent discontent. I do! But it's been a while, now, and I wondered if you could see a bit of the bigger picture that was going on at the time. And to realize that you were not alone. Many, many people were not ganging up on you. It is really not you vs. us. It's just us.

*In other words, I waited all this time, and then started badgering you. :) Better, right? :P

halplm wrote:
At some point there were hearings called by me for others... but everyone begged me to back down and not cause a big problem... and woohoo for me... I did. Does anyone remember that?
You know what? I hadn't thought about that in a while. (Hadn't thought about all this mess in a while, actually! :() Thank you for reminding me of what YOU did for the board. For the peace of the board.

I appreciate that. :)


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Angbasdil
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Posted: Wed 05 Dec , 2007 12:09 am
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Anthy wrote:
I wasted my time, my energy, and have acquired an apparently permanent negative reputation in some quarters because I did what I thought was right for you-- and for the board. Wasted.
Doing what you think is right is never a waste. :hug:

Ever.


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