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jewelsong
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 7:52 pm
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WampusCat wrote:
I didn't even recall that quote. At the time themary posted that, I assumed it was said with a joking tone so I didn't think of it as an outright insult but as a ranger trying to lighten up a direct order..
I agree. And I don't think that TheMary's little quip is what escalated the situation at all.

It looks like we will have enough volunteers for the jury pool, so that's a good thing.


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Angbasdil
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 8:14 pm
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While we're talking about the jury pool, I regret to say that upon further consideration, I need to be recused from it for this particular matter. Keep me in the pool for any future hearings, but the more I think about this one the more I realize that I can't be objective about it anymore. My mind is already made up on the entire issue.

Sorry. :neutral:


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tinwe
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 9:08 pm
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I believe we were going to make every effort to enlist people who were already on the Jury Pool list before this altercation took place before considering new applicants in order to avoid any appearance of conflict of interest in the case. If we are unable to do so we will address the issue further, but we would like to maintain the highest level of integrity possible.

Jewelsong, since you were one of the people calling for the hearing you will not, of course, be on the jury. I’m pretty sure you will be asked to give a statement to the jury about why you feel this is an actionable offense.

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jewelsong
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 9:13 pm
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tinwë wrote:
Jewelsong, since you were one of the people calling for the hearing you will not, of course, be on the jury. I’m pretty sure you will be asked to give a statement to the jury about why you feel this is an actionable offense.
No problem...whatever the Rangers decide.


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The Watcher
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 9:58 pm
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Seconding what Alatar indicated. Potential jurors in the pool will be asked whether they are willing to serve based on the order they entered to serve, and current rangers or past participants on other juries will be excluded, as well as any who might be called to give statements. The first six to respond that they are willing plus a seventh as an alternate, are what we will be arranging now. If for some reason we cannot do that, the recent members who indicated that they would serve (excluding Ang and JS ) and the two other jurors who already served will be contacted.

I think I will open two new threads regarding this, one concerning juror
service, and one regarding the hearing itself, since the jury room will be read only for those not directly involved. Is the Business forum the best place to put both of these threads? I want it to be where the membership feels most comfortable discussing it.

TW

The names of those that will be contacted and considered first are as follows:

The names of the eligible first time jurors are:

TheEllipticalDisillusion
Nin
Eruname
Faramond
Ara-anna
The Tennis Ball Kid
MariaHobbit
Pippin4242
truehobbit
Dindraug
Frelga
Donernilwen
tolkienpurist

Repeat jurors:
LalithUrwen
MaidenoftheShieldarm

New applicants:
elfshadow
Angbasdil (excused this time)
JewelSong (excused this time)
Jude

Members will be selected in the order they respond affirmatively as they appear on that list. If any potential juror feels that they have a conflict with serving fairly, the rangers will rely on you to state such. Obviously, if there are other matters which would also keep you from serving, those are valid reasons as well.

I will be pming every name above to request your service on the jury. In the event that we have too many affirmative responses, where your name appears will determine if you will indeed serve or not.

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Glaciers melting in the dead of night and the superstars sucked into the supermassive...
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TheMary
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 10:26 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Farawen wrote:
WampusCat wrote:
My hero in all this is themary, who spoke up against the insult to her (no doormat, that's for sure!), yet was strong enough let it slide (thus not escalating the drama, for the sake of the community), and now is supportive of those who do want to make an issue of it (again, for the sake of the community). Her actions have been commendable.
Hi. :)

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. TM, I feel that this comment of yours to democracy
Quote:
"I am better than you in every sense of the word now get on your knees and kiss my shoes"
may well have been the reason why the situation escalated in the first place.

I guess I could thank TM for not throwing a hissy fit after that or totally losing it in public, but that's actually something I expect from grown-ups I communicate with. :blackeye:
I don't ask for thanks for praise. Yes I posted that but was I serious?! :roll: Not so much. Dude was freaking out so I gave him some of his own crazy sauce.

All democracy had to do was ask if I was serious but he didn't he assumed (hmm does anyone else see a trend here?) and then flipped out. Thanks for your input though :).


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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 11:20 pm
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I've been dithering about whether I had anything useful to say about the charter and a hearing and the democracy matter. I'm still dithering about whether it's useful, but I do want to say one thing, and that will exhaust my energy for the topic.

The Charter was primarily designed as a document drafted by equals within a community for equals within a community. While there are exceptions to this--the sectioning off of TOE comes to mind--it was a guiding principle for at least some of us who worked on it, and I think it's a good one.

Someone who wanders in with a single digit post count, no history with anyone here, and then stirs up shit, for whatever reason, with whatever intent, is NOT a member of this community. Thus, treating him as if he were is not a good application of the Charter. He is really closer to the drive-by porn spammer and should be (in my opinion) dealt with as such.

Now, if people think a hearing is still the best method for addressing the issue, go to it. But do so knowing it's not the situation that tool was designed for.

That's it for me. Good luck.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 11:40 pm
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There was no way to cover all inevitabilities, and sometimes you have to adapt.
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TheMary
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Posted: Thu 29 Nov , 2007 11:42 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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I wasn't here for the drive by porn spammer what exactly happened to him/her?


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The Watcher
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 12:52 am
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Axordil wrote:
I've been dithering about whether I had anything useful to say about the charter and a hearing and the democracy matter. I'm still dithering about whether it's useful, but I do want to say one thing, and that will exhaust my energy for the topic.

The Charter was primarily designed as a document drafted by equals within a community for equals within a community. While there are exceptions to this--the sectioning off of TOE comes to mind--it was a guiding principle for at least some of us who worked on it, and I think it's a good one.

Someone who wanders in with a single digit post count, no history with anyone here, and then stirs up shit, for whatever reason, with whatever intent, is NOT a member of this community. Thus, treating him as if he were is not a good application of the Charter. He is really closer to the drive-by porn spammer and should be (in my opinion) dealt with as such.

Now, if people think a hearing is still the best method for addressing the issue, go to it. But do so knowing it's not the situation that tool was designed for.

That's it for me. Good luck.
Axordil -

You bring up good points, and I think others such as Anthy have brought up the same, please forgive me, I know others did as well, i am sort of getting a bit numb here trying to reread everything over and over.

The point is, no matter if we like it or not, the charter is very specific on what the rangers can do to a member who is found to be in violation of that same charter, and the powers imposed upon rangers when a new member elects to start off on a wild rampage are clear, but "democracy" technically joined over a year ago. Granted, I never even noticed him up until a week or so ago, when he started posting "publicly" but he WAS here, and several members here admit to having contact with him and to responding back to him, never mind his alternate personas on other boards. I noted them, but I never made any direct connection until after the facts of what transpired HERE. That is what we deal with, what occurred here.

As I keep stating, if you do not like the way that the current charter works, start up something to change it. "democracy" is currently still sequestered in the BR, and now that a formal hearing has been requested, that is where he will stay except for access to the jury room when he is notified of it and invited to participate. If he chooses to show up or not is nothing that anyone here can control, but, as others here (many of them) have pointed out, if no action is taken on this current altercation, then we can hardly state anything about if and when democracy returns and perhaps starts up the same sort of stuff.

Turning a blind eye to this only invites abuse, because by turning the blind eye we are saying that what this charter states means nothing. That indeed may be very well the case if were left up to a vote, but in the meantime, we deal with what we have.

My thoughts on democracy personally have to remain my own as long as I act as a "ranger." Just as I hope I would try and stay neutral if it were any other of you people getting involved in something that ticked you off.

As far as the other rangers, we are all in complete agreement that what has transpired here is well within other members' rights to file formal complaints on. That is what we are acting on, that is what we were appointed to do. None of us finds it pleasant or stimulating or like "Wow, we get to test out the charter!!"

Last edited by The Watcher on Fri 30 Nov , 2007 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

_________________

Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 miles per second, is a cow that has been dropped from a helicopter.

Never under any circumstances take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

- Dave Barry


Glaciers melting in the dead of night and the superstars sucked into the supermassive...
Supermassive Black Hole.

- Muse


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Angbasdil
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 12:54 am
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I think that was useful, Ax.
Probably because I agree with it. :D
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Sure a sledgehammer isn't the right tool for driving a nail, but it beats using your head.
This is more like using a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito.
It gets the job done, but the walls look like hell afterwards.


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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 2:21 am
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For the life of me I can't understand why people think this process is going to cause additional harm.
That battle over to ban or not to ban has been raging for a long time now, and will contiue to rage whether this process goes on or not.

Are people really that concerned about making people take responsibilities for their actions?

I hereby decree their should be no rangers or anyone with any powers. All rools and regulations should be stricken from the record. From here on out anyone that commits any type of transgression will be subjected to a chorus of "oh you bunnyslipper you" and sent to bed without their daily dose of spam.

I'm an inch away from dropping this whole thing and being done with this lot. If that is to happen, I never want to hear the word charter again and I never want to here what should be done about so and so who did such and such.

I will fight tooth and nail if anyone edits another post or brings anyone to task for anything. If people are afraid to finish the process and let stand the utter garbage that went on around here then there is no cause or justification to admonish anyone.

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 2:31 am
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Last edited by Eruname on Sat 01 Dec , 2007 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 2:35 am
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holby--
I don't think the process is necessarily harmful. Who knows--it might accomplish something unexpectedly useful. I'm just saying the Charter wasn't built to deal with strangers, but US, and people we brought in to our community. We're talking about dividing by zero here, and the results are not well defined. I just wanted to remind people of that, so if the results aren't what they expected, the surprise is less than it might be.

TW--
Quote:
As I keep stating, if you do not like the way that the current charter works, start up something to change it.
Please do not take this as a attack, or even disagreement, or in any way as a statement concerning anything of substance, but can I just cut my toes off with a rusty hacksaw instead? :help:

TM--
It was a hypothetical drive-by porn spammer. Actually, that would have been at least potentially useful. A couple of nice boob shots would be preferable to what happened here. :Q

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 2:46 am
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I didn't ask anyone not to disagree. I heard the disagreements the first 100 times.

What I cannot fathom is how people think this is going to cause any more harm. I hear people say that, yet not a one person has given a possible example. It's all just harping at this point.

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Angbasdil
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 2:50 am
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What Eru said.

You have a right to do this, Holby. And I have a right to disapprove of it. And to express that disapproval. If my disapproval bothers you, then maybe you need to consider why that is.

ETA:
I cross-posted with Holby.

The harm it does is that it prolongs and exacerbates the drama - drama that was pretty much over and done with by the time you got involved in it. Yes, we need to draw lines and deal with those who cross them. But by the time you showed up here, we had done that without resorting to protracted legal procedures. We settled the matter as I think mature adults should. We , the posters of b77, made it clear to democracy and anyone else who was watching that such behavior was unacceptable, and that everyone on the board considered him to be an asshat of the highest order. He (and everyone else) knew that his presence was not valued here. And then he left. Mission accomplished. And we accomplished it in less than two days, with minimal drama and minimal Ranger action. That is how it's supposed to work.

Trials OTOH are supposed to be a measure of last resort for resolving otherwise unresolvable disputes. Instead, we're digging up an already resolved dispute. All that accomplishes is more drama, which is something this board never ever needs.

Last edited by Angbasdil on Fri 30 Nov , 2007 3:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Eruname
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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 2:57 am
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I think it's completely kosher for anyone to approve, disapprove, whatever. I honestly don't have a strong view - I think that if we do this, it will be an interesting test of the Charter's continued utility, and will probably be more useful for teaching us something about ourselves (what we stand for, how we handle disruptions, etc.) than for its ultimate effect (if any) on democracy. If we don't do this, we will have taken a different principled stand, that will again teach us something about ourselves.

BUT: what I would hate to have happen is for this decision to call a hearing - about a poster who is not an established member of our community, and who is not presently here - to cause rifts between long-standing members of our community. This is not to undermine anyone's view of whether we should conduct this hearing -- but simply to express the hope that the fact of the hearing (or its absence) will not create a rift within our community. That would be too high a price to pay for democracy.


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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 3:12 am
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I have considered it.
Having philosophical discussions about the legitimacty of the charter is one thing. Not accepting the fact that the procedures for all of this is plainly laid out and has been for years is another.
If you don't like the law, move to change it. I have no problem with that at all.
I fail to see how continued discussion in this thread can be productive. This thread is what to do about democracy. Well I stepped up and started the process to do something.

If you feel that is in error and is something that is bad for this board then you efforts would be better served at making change and not by continued harping over a subject that is past being affected.

The drama with these issues stems from discussions taking place in the same thread where discussions are being held about the process.

I'm all for discussion and debate over how to improve online societies, provided they take place in their own thread and with a desired objective of making improvements.

Someone calling upon the charter, in his mind to right a wrong, needs a place to go through with that process without the constant bickering and discussions that too often accompany things like this.

There are two issues here and they are being comingled.

At some point there will be a jury discussing this. How fair would it be if the jurors had to try and deliberate while other posters were bashing them with their opinions on the matter?

It isn't what is going on, it is where and when.

And I admit to committing the same transgressions everyone else has.

The legality of this is beyond question. The only fruitful thing that can come out of continued discussion about this, is whether this is right for the community and efforts to make change.

I hope that clarifies my stance on this.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 3:16 am
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We are going ahead, and I think everyone should be welcome to comment as they see fit.

I only hope I do not find myself and some others standing on board the sinking Titanic stating that we are trying to do what we were asked to do while everyone else either climbs into a liferaft or sinks down with us.

Bad analogy, I know, but it would be nice to see some people who post here stick up for what this place means, and I know it does not mean much, but we have this "whatever system" of supposed boardwide involvement to handle disruptive affairs, and all some of us are asking is that now we try and make it work.

I note with serious comment that NOBODY here has started up any effort to revisit the charter and scrap it, change it, amend it, or anything else. I also note that we have a whopping seventeen people in the jury pool, and even less than that in the ranger pool.

I know we all have busy real lives and all, but does the phrase "put your money where your mouth is" mean anything here? It is really easy to come and criticize and comment and fly by when you have nothing at all vested here, and nobody says you should have, but, then , why are you even bothering to comment?

Last edited by The Watcher on Fri 30 Nov , 2007 3:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

_________________

Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 miles per second, is a cow that has been dropped from a helicopter.

Never under any circumstances take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

- Dave Barry


Glaciers melting in the dead of night and the superstars sucked into the supermassive...
Supermassive Black Hole.

- Muse


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