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Philosophical/Factual Discussions About The Charter+ Stuff

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Holbytla
Post subject: Philosophical/Factual Discussions About The Charter+ Stuff
Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 4:29 am
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and what to do about it.

I didn't want to bump an old thread that was already filled with nastiness.
I wanted to start a new one so we could have fresh clean nastiness.

I would like to start off with some factual things regarding the charter. The philosophical aspect is something that can go on forever and never be resolved. Getting the simple stuff out of the way first seems easiest.

There has been lots of discussion over the last months regarding the charter. Many find it too confining to the rangers, and the processes too unwieldy. I tend to agree. I think the document itself, crafted after the TORC fallout, has left us with a piece of legislation that has become somewhat outdated. No worries though, there are ways to implement change within the charter.

A lot of the discussion recently has been on the subject of how to handle posters that are out of line according to most people's standards. Of late it seems the solution is to toss someone in the Bike Racks for a cooling off period. There is/was some question about this and legality of it, but rangers have been using this portion of the charter to handle situations.

I think there remains a lot of misconceptions about this.
Quote:
Extraordinary Powers of Rangers
Recognizing that unforeseen events may occur which require a quick response, Board77 Rangers are expected to use their best judgment in emergencies, and to take whatever action they believe necessary to protect the board. An emergency would be an event which threatened real and immediate harm, but which is not otherwise addressed by this charter. In such an event, the Ranger(s) in question would be expected to explain the circumstances and consult with the board membership as soon as possible. Such measures are temporary by their nature and subject to review by the standing Committee for Charter Amendments
I highlighted the word temporary for a reason.
The only purported use for temporary bans and relegating someone to the Bike Racks is a temporary holding place while determining what the course of action should be. It is not and never has been meant to be a punishment capable of being enacted upon by rangers.

In fact by doing so, the ranger needs to justify his/her position and the offender has a right to contest that decision.
Quote:
In all other cases the poster has the Right to a Hearing, and if the poster registered more than seven days ago they are considered a member of the community and have a right to a hearing for these offenses as well; but their posting rights will be restricted to the Jury Room for the duration of the hearing.
A ranger tossing someone in the Bike Racks without calling a hearing for offenses, is in fact going against the charter. This charter was written in an atmosphere, which essentially gave all the power to the posters regardless of their actions. It is incumbant upon the rangers to justify their actions.

Here is the rest of the rangers powers. Nowhere does it allow for them to mete out punishment. Their only powers are temporary and must be followed up with a hearing. Note the last line.
Quote:
¶4: Routine powers of Rangers

• Activate memberships;
• Create new forums when a majority of current Rangers agree it is necessary;
• Move the appropriate threads into newly created forums as necessary;
• Create temporary Ranger positions when a majority of current Rangers agree this is necessary, provided that the appointees have served as Rangers in the past and no formal complaint has been issued against them for their actions as a Ranger; a temporary appointment will last for two full weeks and may be renewed one time (four full weeks in total);
• In the Jury Room and the Archive, enable posting rights, delete illegitimate posts from Hearings, and delete threads when they are finished;
• In the Thinking of England Forum, initiate announcement threads and oversee consideration periods in accordance with the instructions in Article 6, ¶4.
• Lock, split, or move threads upon request of members, or when it is necessary to improve the coherence of a forum; the thread originator must be notified beforehand;
• Edit Posts if they affect the display of the page, e.g. stretched pages, after notifying the poster;
• If a poster registers an invalid email address, restrict posting rights to the Bike Racks and send the poster a PM so that a correct address can be provided;
• Download new smilies;
• Delete double posts at the request of the poster.

Rangers are required to:
• Note all Ranger edits in a post, and email the poster advising them of the edit;
• Rangers-in-training may have their administrative powers enabled and exercise routine powers under the supervision of a full Ranger, but administrative powers are disabled when the training session is over.

Rangers may not:
• Delete posts or lock threads without permission of the originator unless the originator has engaged in conduct justifying an immediate ban, or edit posts except in the circumstances specified in paragraph ¶5;

• Delete smilies or change the style of the board without allowing members to express their opinion beforehand in the proper forum;
• Change the permissions of a poster at the poster's request, except for routine changes of permission in the Jury Room, Archives, and Thinking of England Forum; nor can they ban members for any reason other than those listed below.

¶5: Special and Emergency powers of Rangers

• Edit Posts if they contain objectionable content (for example, abuse of another poster, defamatory remarks, pornographic, violent or distasteful content, or advertisement of products), or if they reveal personal information that compromises another poster's privacy or contain any personal information about a minor.

• Enact an Immediate Ban for the following offenses if the poster has registered within the last seven days:
1. Spamming the board with ads;
2. Spamming the board with porn;
3. Hacking the board;
4. Refusing to abide by the Decision of Jury in a Hearing;
5. Threats of real life violence or other criminal acts against members.

In all other cases the poster has the Right to a Hearing, and if the poster registered more than seven days ago they are considered a member of the community and have a right to a hearing for these offenses as well; but their posting rights will be restricted to the Jury Room for the duration of the hearing.

• Temporarily suspend posting rights or restrict access to a forum:
1. In the Jury Room, if poster has interfered with a Hearing on a Ban, board-wide posting rights can be suspended until the Hearing is concluded;
2. In the There and Back Again forum, if more than one complaint has been made against the way an RP identity has been used, posting rights can be suspended until a Hearing can be held regarding the continuation of that identity;
3. In the Thinking of England Forum, if more than one complaint has been made about the way a poster has been posting there, posting rights can be suspended until a Hearing can be held to determine the right of continued access to that forum;
4. If a sig pic is arguably pornographic, violent or distasteful it can be removed; and if the poster persists in reposting it, posting rights outside the Jury Room can be suspended until a Hearing decision is reached.

• Convene a Hearing on a ban whenever a bannable offense is called to their attention.

• Convene a Hearing to reverse a ban if the following three conditions are met:
1. if the duration of the ban was not specified;
2. the banned poster has requested a new Hearing in an email sent from the email address used to register;
3. at least one month has elapsed since the ban went into effect; Rangers can postpone a requested hearing longer but not more than three months.

Procedures for using special and emergency powers
An immediate ban is of unspecified duration. A Hearing must be convened to reverse it.

When posting rights are suspended, a Hearing must be held and the Jury will decide the duration of the suspension.
The misconception that issues are handled, over and done with after a ranger locks someone in the Bike Racks is wrong. Rangers do not have that power and that was done for a reason. It prevents someone acting as a ranger from unfairly treating a poster. Again drawn up in the atmosphere of the TORC fallout.

If the majority of the people here feel that needs to change, then that is what should happen. Arguing that matters, such as democacy's are handled and done with is essentially violating the rights of the posters.

Personally I would like to see some of that changed, but I doubt it will ever happen. No one here wants to give anyone the power to do anything. If that is the case, then the charter as it stands is the only recourse, and it and the poster's rights are being violated.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 4:57 am
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What Holby points out is correct, and just to clarify things, no current ranger here felt comfortable with quarantining democracy in the BR indefinitely. The rangers all knew we would have to let him have restored posting privileges after a certain period or determine if charges were warranted. That issue was addressed when posters came forward and asked for actions to be taken, although technically, the rangers could also have initiated those same actions.

Several members here have indicated contrary opinions on what rangers should have done, some think we can justt toss the guy into "lockdown" for a few days and then restore him as if nothing else would happen, and we CAN do that, but in this case, it went beyond that issue, and not only did some rangers have issues with it but members did as well. The rangers acted on the side of caution, maybe out of respect for what so many here see as wanting to wield the utmost in restraint in terms of taking actions. But other members did and do have the right to call upon us to act, and after doing so, all five rangers agreed that what took place warranted the call for a hearing.

If the consensus is that the current charter should be changed or modified or scrapped, I cannot be the one to call for doing it. That is up to this community and what they think that they want.

To be honest, I really do not think one way or the other, at current, this is what we have to work within and so this is how we deal with stuff. Could it be easier? Of course it could be, but what powers do you want the rangers to have? When the next incident occurs, do you want the rangers to be able to do whatever seems to them to be the most appropriate action and screw what the charter says? What if it were you that might be involved in the whole thing?

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 3:31 pm
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I do not see the central question as being one of what powers are assigned to rangers--those are clear. I see it as defining who is covered when we say "poster." While the person in question in this case had posted here some time ago, the post that began this incident was his third. As in number 3.

That's three posts in a year from someone that I do not believe is personally known to anyone here.

Do you want the protections the Charter provides to posters to apply to someone no one knows who posts here once in a blue moon AND in a way that indicates he has no real interest in being considered part of the community? THAT is the question as I see it.

Currently the only place in the Charter that overtly distinguishes between "levels" of poster is the part about ToE. It bears mentioning that in that section, we eventually came to the conclusion that activity on the board, as measured by BOTH calendar time and post count, was important in determining the trust level needed to allow someone in that forum.

Is there a level of activity that should be required before someone is fully covered as a poster on this board? That is, should there be a de jure "probationary period," at least for people who come in out of the blue?

I don't have an answer for that question. On one hand, it would have the effect of closing the currently open "frontier" of the board. On the other hand, it's not like people have been flocking to the board unexpectedly over the past couple of years, while the welcome mat has been out and gathering dust.

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 4:23 pm
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Interesting thoughts, Ax.

Back with the last issue I dealt with (as a ranger), I wanted us to revisit the topic of more specific rules for dealing with someone who consistently caused problems on the board. While I see the merit of approaching the situation from the perspective you've pointed out, it still doesn't deal with a regular poster who consistently causes problems.

I think (though I could be wrong) that banning as an option is out for that regular member. I'm playing my cards close to my vest on that one and don't care to share my opinion on that specifically. However, having some sort of "punishment" might be very helpful, unless people think that a temporary confinement to the Bike Racks is sufficient in and of itself (though I think Holby makes a good point).

I'm not sure what to think about it all, actually, but I'm willing to work on amending the charter if that's what people want to do. I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I think the charter is overall quite good; I just think it could use some tweaking now that we've been a community for some time and have some practical experience under our belts.

My two cents,

Lali

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tinwe
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 4:33 pm
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I tend to agree with you Ax, in fact I brought the issue up in the other thread a few days ago, but it went largely unnoticed.

It does seem to me that one of the central questions in this whole incident is at what point does someone become an established poster and a genuine member of the community? My assumption has always been that the price of membership is simply signing up and that anyone who signs up is automatically afforded the full protection of the charter. Obviously we have exceptions to that and we have never hesitated to delete spambots and drive-by porn spammers (Faramond excluded). And while I agree with you 100% that 3 posts in one year does not qualify someone as an established member, the fact is this guy was not a drive-by spammer, and however tenuous his connection to us may have been, he did in fact a connection, at least more so than your typical spambot. And I cannot say that he had no real interest in being part of the community - he clearly did in his own way, I just think he completely misinterpreted what the community was about.

I see only two ways to proceed with this (not including ignoring it and hoping it stays away on its own) - either conclude this person was never a legitimate member here and delete his account and all of his posts, or go through the hearing process. But here is where I think we differ on the matter - I think we can conduct the hearing in a calm way, and not give the matter any more attention than it deserves, which I agree is not much, let the jury do it’s job and be done with it. Like I said in the other thread, it does not have to be an angst ridden or drama filled process. But I do think the jury should take into consideration the fact that this person was not an established member here and they should rule on him accordingly. Which, if it was up to me, would be to an indefinite ban.

Calm, quiet, and over with. We maintain our standards and our principles. How is that wrong?

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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 4:40 pm
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I think it is misleading to think of the Bikeracks as 'punishment'. I mentioned a while back that if I got in a hissy fit with someone I would understand it being put in the Bikeracks. It is meant as
1 a cooling off place
and
2 a means of letting other posters carry on without being pestered by disruptive, aggressive or annoying posts.
I don't quite think that is punishment. It is not presuming a guilt of anything. A ban is a punishment. If you are in the Bikeracks you are still able to post here. The Bikeracks should be a working tool of this place.

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 4:48 pm
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Agreed, Tosh. I'm not trying to say that the Bike Racks should be used as a punishment. In fact, I'm saying it's a place for the person/people to be confined to till they cool off or till the rangers decide what to do about the situation.

So, then the question becomes (in the case of a well-established member of this board who consistently causes problems), is there any "punishment" after putting that person and anyone else involved in the disruption in the Bike Racks to cool off? Or is that the end of the matter? And then we don't care if the person starts it all over again in a month or so?

Or is where we invoke what we already have in the charter and call for a hearing?

Good post, tinwe.


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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 5:25 pm
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Quote:
• Enact an Immediate Ban for the following offenses if the poster has registered within the last seven days:
1. Spamming the board with ads;
2. Spamming the board with porn;
3. Hacking the board;
4. Refusing to abide by the Decision of Jury in a Hearing;
5. Threats of real life violence or other criminal acts against members.

In all other cases the poster has the Right to a Hearing, and if the poster registered more than seven days ago they are considered a member of the community and have a right to a hearing for these offenses as well; but their posting rights will be restricted to the Jury Room for the duration of the hearing.
That to me pretty much settles whether this guy was an active member.

As I stated earlier, the Bike Racks is only part of the process. The charter necessitates a follow up to that action.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 7:39 pm
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I had forgotten that bit, holby. We screwed the pooch on it, I'm afraid, by assuming in our hubris that once someone posted here, even if it was for a week, they would "get it." We had a model in our collective noggin for what someone posting here would be like, and it's not reliable in all cases.

I would be willing, god help me, to discuss a change to the Charter that makes membership in the community more narrowly construed than posting here once a week ago.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 10:11 pm
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Thank you both Holby and Ax for noting that little stumbling block. Right THERE is where I think we could ask for an amendment of some sort, like maybe a threshold number of posts sort of criteria? After x number of posts, you are considered a permanent poster/full fledged member or something akin to that idea? I do not think that it would discourage people who come here looking us over, if they like it, they will get the hang of it here pretty quickly, and if they are leery of posting, then, well, they were never really members to begin with, were they? I do not think the threshold number of posts needs to be very high, I could toss out ideas of saying even 25 (legitimate, I should add, not spam or hacking or trolling posts) might suffice.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 10:38 pm
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I don't know where I put my copy of the Charter...what is the current number of posts/time for TOE access, for reference?

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 10:46 pm
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Quote:
¶3: Eligibility to Access the Age Restricted Forum
A member becomes eligible to access the "Thinking of England" forum after three months and 100 posts. After this time, a member can request access to the forum from a Ranger. Access is routinely granted unless the required number of ToE members voice their opposition to the petitioning member gaining access to the forum pursuant to the process outlined in

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vison
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 11:08 pm
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That sounds good enough to me, Holbytla. Can we think about extending that definition to all new posters?

And I mean the complete clause, including the right of a certain number of established members to object.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 11:29 pm
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3 months and 100 posts is too much for just being a member.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 11:31 pm
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Oh and I would like to point out even Torc doesn't have that rule.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 30 Nov , 2007 11:35 pm
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And Administrator would not be a member....as Administrator only has 96 posts... :damnfunny:

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Axordil
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 12:09 am
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I think the TOE numbers would be the upper bound for the discussion, and the current week/1 post the lower. From their it's all triangulation. :D

Ara--
TORC also can pitch people out on their ear for looking funny. Thus, here. ;)

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The Watcher
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 2:57 am
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Axordil wrote:
I think the TOE numbers would be the upper bound for the discussion, and the current week/1 post the lower. From their it's all triangulation. :D

Ara--
TORC also can pitch people out on their ear for looking funny. Thus, here. ;)
Hey, I resent the funny looking thing bit. If anyone has seen Jude's sig pic of where I opt to hide out lately, you will know that one pic is indeed worth a thousand words, but I do not hold it against anyone.

:devil:

Seriously, back on track here, I only meant that there should be a minimal sort of post count to give a "member" full benefits under the charter in terms of (unlikely) prosecutorial consequences. I am certainly not suggesting that new members or posters have to "run the gauntlet" or anything at all. I just think by requiring a minimal number of valid posts that one indeed does sort of show that they want to stick around and "be here" and not only cause havoc for the sake of doing it or whatever else might be the grist in their grinders. I do think one hundred posts and three months of active posting might be too severe, I an not talking about TOE here, although what goes on in there is so mild I could care less if even my own 18 year old read it, but, that is not my cup of tea in anycase.

I really want to be fair to all here and am trying to think up of a way to say "yes there is a small trial period here but it is not a big deal" sort of suggestion.

It still does not address issues with a case of continued disruption, but, for the moment, that is not what the board is dealing with.

And, on that note, I need to get back to rangerly stuff. Thanks for letting me add my two cents. :)

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Holbytla
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 3:47 am
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Quote:
It still does not address issues with a case of continued disruption, but, for the moment, that is not what the board is dealing with.
No it doesn't. Really there are only two choices. Empower the rangers, or use the charter.

The big long pain in the butt process is there to protect the posters from heavy handed modding.

So either grin and bear the process or deal with the fallout from a ranger taking action.

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Axordil
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Posted: Sat 01 Dec , 2007 3:07 pm
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I am with Holby. There are sufficient procedures in place, formal and less so, to deal with disruption from people who are members of the community, and for all their faults, the board has not yet disintegrated because of their shortcomings.

That, and revamping those aspects of the Charter to something "better" that most people can AGREE is better has zero chance of happening. That ship has sailed, sunk, and become an underwater nature preserve. The process would merely sharpen current disagreements and ill will, not address it. Trust me on this.

Address the issue that DOES have a hope of being addressed: what does it take to be considered a member of this community? Is it simply, say, 30 days and 30 posts? Do we want a TOE style veto, with all that entails (I remember the argument about that before, and it wasn't pretty)? Do we want someone to be able to "vouch" for someone they know and eliminate the period (and I can JUST see someone who doesn't like the rule vouching for everyone out of principle/spite)?

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