board77

I want everyone to know, I spent a great deal of time deliberating about whether I should make this post. However, the double-standard I have complained about in the past is so obviously occuring right now, that I feel I must point it out.

Earlier this week, Holby was very upset at something that happened on the board. His subsequent actions have caused what can ONLY be described as a board-wide disruption, many of which he has played a large part in, in the past. No less than 5 threads have been split off or started to deal with this (yes, some were jokes, but at least one didn't stay a joke). Holby has stated quite clearly that he won't let this kind of thing keep happening (although, it's obvious that this kind of thing specifically almost never happens, so I'm not clear what he is referring to.), so he's "not going to let this go."

I also personally think Holby has said some pretty nasty things to a couple of people.

Now, it's quite true, that I have serious personal issues with Holby, and I started this post with the idea of just saying "a poster" or something like that, but that's just silly, as I am talking about a specific poster. However, I want to stress that I am not trying to single out Holby in this case. I only reference him because he is the center of this disruption.

Besides, he's not the only cause of this disruption... he only started one thread, the rest were started by others.

The last board-wide disruption, was caused by me. I won't dispute that, although I still maintain that I was reacting to unfair treatment that I wasn't going to take any more and I was "not going to let it go." Still, making it board-wide was my fault. I should have done it differently. How, I'm not sure, as at the time, I felt I had no options, but anyway...

To get back on point, here we have a board-wide disruption, that has been caused by several people. Everyone is calling it "drama" Some people are very upset about it all. It has personally caused me a great deal of grief off the board.

And yet... is it the people that started this board-wide disruption that are being blamed for it? No, it's the people that argued it shouldn't be a big huge issue. IT's the people in the minority, who feel that making a big deal out of it, is what leads to board-wide problems and pissed off people. IT's backwards.

Why is it that way? Because people like Holby. They wish he was around more. I'm pretty sure they wish he would show up when there was NOT drama going on more often.

Some of these same people dislike me. And when I had a problem, it was all about blaming everything on me (which some have even tried to do in this bit of drama), and they added to the drama then, and helped make what shouldn't have even been an issue into board-wide drama.

We have people on this board that don't like each other. This is not at all abnormal. In any group of people some aren't going to like each other. THIS is what causes drama. Everyone jumps in on a side, and suddenly there's board-wide disruption. It's not one person (ie. me). It's not one small group. IT's not people seeking attention or acting like children.

It's just US. This is Board77. This is a community that likes to argue. We like to debate. We like to help our friends. We're good people, and good people like to stay together, even when they violently disagree.

So what's the problem? We've forgotten that. We've forgotten that the people we seem to always disagree with are good people too. We ALL have. We've all got people in little boxes where we know how react to them in a standard way. Hal is the drama-maker. Holby is the jokester who likes to post pictures of scantily clad women. Ang is the monkey.

Labels cause us to forget there's a person on the other side. It's a problem in real life, but it's an even bigger problem on the internet. We're not even talking heads... we're posts on a board, where we're practically hiding the fact we are people ourselves.

Labels aren't fair. I've had serious problems with a lot of people around here because all they see is the label that's been (I think unfairly obviously) applied to me. I tried to get people to see that label a couple of months ago, in the hope that seeing the label, would force people I know are good people, to re-evaluate their use of that label. However, it did not work.

If you label someone a troublemaker, and don't let them get away from that label. And every time they disagree, you (collectively as a board) say they are just trying to make trouble... that hurts. If that's not a persistant set of harrassment over a long period of time... I don't know what is. But who am I supposed to say needs a hearing? The whole board?

hal,

Good post.

Quote:

Labels cause us to forget there's a person on the other side. It's a problem in real life, but it's an even bigger problem on the internet. We're not even talking heads... we're posts on a board, where we're practically hiding the fact we are people ourselves.

Been there, done that, trying to stop.

Quote:

If you label someone a troublemaker, and don't let them get away from that label. And every time they disagree, you (collectively as a board) say they are just trying to make trouble... that hurts. If that's not a persistant set of harrassment over a long period of time... I don't know what is. But who am I supposed to say needs a hearing? The whole board?

Here's the thing - the only thing you can control is yourself. I didn't (and still don't) like this whole trial business. I think it prolongs the drama, and I said so. It didn't change anyone elses behavior, but when I persisted in restating my opinion, I became the one who was adding to the drama. So I could either continue and be a part of the problem, or drop it and let the problem continue, only without my involvement. Not a perfect solution, but one I can live with. At least I'm okay with my own actions. Most of the time, that's about all you can get in this life.

If you want my advice on your own particular case (and feel free to disregard it if you want), I'd say you face the same choice. Others see you as a troublemaker. When you complain about that, drama ensues and you (rightly or wrongly) get blamed for it. So stop complaining about it. Yeah, I know that's hard to do, but it's the only way to break the cycle. You can't make other people change their behavior, so it has to start with you. Just let it go and if someone calls you a troublemaker, prove them wrong by ignoring them. Be the change you wish to see.

I'd start by changing your sig.

I'm trying to do that too, ang. That's why it was hard to decide to make this post at all, as it seems like I'm just complaining about others calling me the troublemaker again.

But at some point it just has to stop. It got to the point where I couldn't join in any arugment or discussion outside of fun spam, because I'd immediatly be labeled as attacking, or instigating or whatever.

It's not just one person, or I would try and sort things out in the bikeracks or call for a hearing, or whatever. It's a much larger group. There is no mechanism for dealing with that.

I only want to ask when Angbasdil is going to let the monkeys loose.

halplm -

I give you every point for continuing your cause but, I will be honest, and this is not in anyway a putdown, but 99% of us just do not get it or see what you are charging the windmills for any longer. What you are frankly arguing for is anarchy, where anyone can come in and do anything and noting should happen to them because of their actions. I am not trying to be stupid or biased here, but is that really what you are arguing FOR? This is not a board of friends, as your arguments about other posters clearly indicate. Even families who love each other to death still have rules, and sometimes boudaries get crossed which requie actions. Now, instead, we have a board which spans continents and numerous time zones and all sorts of different backgrounds and you are advocating for no actions to b taken when clearly many people are upset? Ignore it all and it goes away? the sad thing is hal, such things do NOT go away, in fact, then other people DO start looking for reasons, and they DO start laying blame on others when no other actions can be taken.

In this particular instance, the charter clearly states what members can cal out as a violation and the rangers need to agree wiht it. Are you suggesting that the rangers have some sort of prearranged agreement with the members who were indeed outraged and upset? are you saying that five of u should have all told these members to shut up and get over it? We rangers should just quarantine the offending poster for a week or two and then let him out despite what others clearly saw as "crossing the line?"

You are asking the rangers to do the impossible, hal, sorry, but you are.

The analogy keeps coming up as if we who are the current rangers are police or something, we are not even that, The problem with b77 is, once you get past the rangers, there is no other enforcement there, not for the complaining posters nor for the ones being accused of disruption.

Life is a balance, and what is "balanced" for you is not what is "balanced" for others. What we do here is to strive to seek the best sort of compromise on balance for everyone here, not you, not Holby, not the Watcher, not TheMary, not "Joe Blow." Everyone, and that includes addressing things that some here feel cross lines.

In your world, maybe nothing someone does on a MB can cross a line, but I doubt that, otherwise why would you still be here after years of dealing with MBs trying to make the same point? If you did not care at all, then you would not be here continually trying to state and restate it. I am not trying to put you down, but I am suggesting that you are preaching to a choir of very few, but hey, go for it. Few of us believe in the anarchy rule, in that good intentions, however badly applied to one's own actions, are justification in any case for outcomes. But it seems that that is exactly what you are saying should be okay.

I am not, and have not, ever argued for anarchy. That's a common statement of those that disagree with me... it's a simple tactic to state someone you disagree with wants anarchy... because no one wants anarchy.

if you would read my last big post, you would see, this has nothing to do with what I have done, or what Holby has done or anything. It's trying to address a fundamental problem with this board, where people fail to remember that the people that make up this board are good people.

Drama is not a problem. Drama where people refuse to communicate any further is. Drama over this poster democracy is silly, as he's gone and all that... but it's not a problem. The fact that some people want to shut other people up about the issues of what should be done with troublemakers IS. We should always be open to everyone's opinion. We should never say someone arguing a dissenting opinion "wants anarchy" That sets everyone against that person... their opinion is lost in the shouting for discipline.

If 99% of people can't see what I'm arguing for, then you're right, it IS pointless. However, I have always believed the people that make up this community are smarter than that. If I'm wrong, so be it, and it won't matter what I say, and my opinion, and those that agree with me, will be gone eventually. It's not only desired by some, but inevitable, if people aren't open-minded enough to see what is being said.

More people than you might realize agree with me... but do not state so publically, because they don't want to deal with the drama. They don't want to be labeled as anarchists and drama-makers. Thats fine, I don't care about that. But those people are being forced out just as I have been and will be. I still believe in this place, and this community, and this group that dwindles every day, slowly but surely. I think if things changed, then it could become strong again, and we could get back some of those that have left.

But if a small group of bullies, continues to force all people to agree with them ALL the time... then they will be all that is left. they won't see it happening, because they believe everyone should or does agree with them... but it will happen. That will be a sad day.

Well, I was saying I think people here are smart, not dumb, but if you want to read it to be pissed off at me, I guess you can, but that's kind of my point.

If people are looking for a reason to be pissed at me, they aren't looking to understand me. If you start reading someone's post already decided on how you want to react... then you will always find a reason to react that way. You'll read it just to the point where you can get pissed off and react, and you'll ignore everything else I said. It happens all the time.

True hal. But let's also accept that it works both ways. It's human nature to perceive everything through the lens of what we already know (or think we know.) The buddhists say that we don't see the world as it is - we see the world as we are. I do it, you do it, we all do it. So you have to accept that, just as others are prone to perceive you as a troublemaker, you are also prone to perceive others as being dismissive and disrespectful towards you. Yes, some instances are cut and dried, but a lot of them aren't.

The real question is, what do we do when it happens? Do we get pissed off and post a rant that makes us feel better but also escalates the situation, or do we step off, settle down and then try to come to a real understanding?

the problem is that both parties have to commit to working it out.
It only takes one side to start a pissing contest.

Angbasdil wrote:

the problem is that both parties have to commit to working it out.

I have spent months trying to get any one of the people that have this perception of me to simply acknowledge that there is a problem, let alone start working it out.

So far, it's mostly been met with open hostility and saying it's all my problem, no one elses.

halplm wrote:

Angbasdil wrote:

the problem is that both parties have to commit to working it out.

I have spent months trying to get any one of the people that have this perception of me to simply acknowledge that there is a problem, let alone start working it out.

So far, it's mostly been met with open hostility and saying it's all my problem, no one elses.

Am I one of these people? IF so, I'm quite willing to open a dialogue. But the thing is I have nothing against you personally. I don't KNOW you personally. All I know of you is through your action and posts on this and other boards. Thats all I have to go on. Do I think you're a "problem poster"? Yes. Does that mean I'm not open to discussion about that? No.

Alatar wrote:

Do I think you're a "problem poster"? Yes. Does that mean I'm not open to discussion about that? No.

See...my issue is that I don't understand what there is to discuss. If hal posts WITHOUT causing problems, the past will (ultimately) be in the past. It may not happen in one month or six, but in a year, two years, etc. The more time that goes by without him causing or heavily participating in drama, the more people will be willing to give past actions the benefit of the doubt (or not think about them at all.)

My perception (which I'm open to having corrected) is that hal:
- Is not willing to give it time, and is not willing to put in the effort to change people's perception of him by his actions over a period of time, and moreover:
- Wants some sort of concession or acknowledgment from the rest of us. Yes, hal, you're not a troublemaker. Yes, hal, you were misunderstood. Yes, hal, all those other people were to blame. The flat-out truth is that he is NEVER going to get this. Period. And in fact, the already infinitesimally small chance that he will get anything like this becomes even smaller when he continues this...what seems like a crusade, to what end isn't even clear to me. All that I understand is that right now he's pissed off that people don't think kindly of him, and has thus decided to make a different incident involving a completely different poster About Him. Again.

As TED so aptly said in the other thread, "So, this thread is back to being about hal? Tiresome."

I didn't make it about me, I expressed my opinion. this thread, I do believe, is still about me being banned.


And I do not want to give it time, because I've given it time, and no matter what I do, people's perceptions of me get worse, not better.


As for your second point, I don't want any concessions or acknowledgments. I just want to be able to post my opinion, and not be accused of being a jealous attention whore that just wants to cause trouble! I havent' been able to do that for MONTHS.

halplm wrote:

I didn't make it about me, I expressed my opinion. this thread, I do believe, is still about me being banned.


And I do not want to give it time, because I've given it time, and no matter what I do, people's perceptions of me get worse, not better.


As for your second point, I don't want any concessions or acknowledgments. I just want to be able to post my opinion, and not be accused of being a jealous attention whore that just wants to cause trouble! I havent' been able to do that for MONTHS.

Hal -

Were you banned?

I guess not.

You can and have every right to continue to post your opinions. What you seem to find so discouraging is that you are not getting support for your opinions, and, I hate to state it, that is the OTHER members' rights to state as well.

People here do not hold some sort of preconceived "looking for trouble from you" sort of perspective until you continue to make it one that they would find. I feel like I am banging my head on the wall with you, because you simply do not see what so many others see. We try to walk in your shoes, could you do a favor to others and do the same for them?

Nobody here is in some sort of "change B77 and make it easy to get rid of members who disagree or feel a need to speak out" mode. Just asking you this, but can you do this over on HoF? TORC? Maybe NOW do you see the points here that some are trying to make?

I see the points people are trying to make, but people still do not see mine.

I don't need support for my opinions, I just need people to recognize them as opinions, and not some sort of attempt to incite a whole bunch of drama.

I can't put it any clearer than that.

I recognize that you have opinions.

I don't think that you're trying to incite drama at the moment either.

I just feel like Beth--that talking to you is like banging my head against the wall, so, for the most part, I have had to stop trying. It's not out of a desire to be mean to you. It's out of a desire to not cause myself undue stress and anger.


Lali

Angbasdil wrote:

So you have to accept that, just as others are prone to perceive you as a troublemaker, you are also prone to perceive others as being dismissive and disrespectful towards you. Yes, some instances are cut and dried, but a lot of them aren't.

Okay. This is interesting.

Hal, I don't perceive you as a troublemaker. (Yes, I know everyone's rolling their eyes out there-- there goes Anthy again!-- but I really don't. I think maybe at one time I did, but I think I understand hal a little better now. Or something.)

But I understand that others do, and I understand your point that there may be those prone to reading your posts with the preconceived idea that whatever you write will be written for the purpose of causing trouble. I do believe that knee-jerk reaction to your posts is there. We could spend some time trying to figure out whose fault that is, and never agree on an answer. But I believe that the negative preconceptions about your words are there.

But, could the second part of Ang's point ALSO be true? Only you can tell us that. Sometimes you are so stubborn I am almost impressed with your utter lack of ability to back off a point, and other times you show some of the most unflinching self-analysis and honesty I have ever seen. You're not a coward, hal. I think we can all agree to that.


So...

Do you think this is true, hal? Do you think you also tend to have knee-jerk reactions to people's posts? Perhaps to see people's attitudes towards you as dismissive and disrespectful, when nothing of the sort is intended?

Could it be possible?

halplm wrote:

this thread, I do believe, is still about me being banned.

Fair enough. Although, the banning point is completely a moot point, since the discussions in the weeks when you weren't posting pretty much established that a significant portion of the membership is not comfortable with banning anyone, ever.

Quote:

And I do not want to give it time, because I've given it time, and no matter what I do, people's perceptions of me get worse, not better.

Then you may want to consider what you are doing. If your version of the story is: you're doing nothing wrong, but people's opinions of you just continue to worsen, then it really seems you have just a couple of options:
- Do you care what opinion people have of you?
- If yes, then is there anything that you can affirmatively do to improve people's opinions? If you can think of anything, why not try it. If not, then it's your call whether you want to keep posting with people's opinions of you being as they currently are (or worsening, according to you.) But here's a hint: continuing with these posts griping about how you are perceived to be a troublemaker? Is PROBABLY not improving *anyone's* opinion of you - although anyone whose opinion is improving should definitely speak up and contradict me.

Quote:

As for your second point, I don't want any concessions or acknowledgments. I just want to be able to post my opinion, and not be accused of being a jealous attention whore that just wants to cause trouble! I havent' been able to do that for MONTHS.

Well, to be fair, you've "left for good" twice in the past six months, and that always contributes to perceptions of being - in your words - an "attention whore." Leaving dramatically and returning suddenly to post ONLY about ongoing drama is sort of a drama queen thing to do. If you were participating at b77 (in more than just the drama threads) and then wanted to express your opinion calmly on democracy (or any other such thing), I doubt it would strike many people as "attention whoring."

when I've left, I've left becuase me staying will only lead to more problems. when I've been around for months taking part in the board when there's NO drama, as soon as other peopel start drama, and I express an opinion, I'm the cause!

so I don't stay around, nothing changes. I stay around, nothing changes. There is nothing proactive I can do if people refuse to acknowledge a problem. If people are willing to acknowledge that, then we can proactively address it... together. I can't do it by myself. All I can do proactive is point out when people have that knee-jerk reaction to me, and state that it is not my intent.

I believe I have done that every single time... and it just makes things work. But if people are willing to work with me, we can see when it happens, and everyone involved can step back and deal with it, rather than have everone jump on me one after another.

Anthy, it is certainly possible. I'm not now, nor have I ever claimed to be perfect or blameless, but I can't be expected to be the one that always is the better person, always steps back and shuts up, and always accepts the blame for things. I've done that in the past to try and calm things down, and it leads to nothing good.

I'm hearing a couple of positive things here, so I appreciate that... but I'm still hearing plenty of negative too... not that I thought it was easy.

halplm wrote:

All I can do proactive is point out when people have that knee-jerk reaction to me, and state that it is not my intent.

Quite bluntly, it is not a kneejerk reaction to you. Look at the way you were welcomed when you were new at TORC and b77. It's not as though you showed up and people said, "Hmm, halplm, we don't need a guy like that around here." You did stuff - a WHOLE lot of stuff - before people developed the opinions they have now. To say everyone's just having a "kneejerk" reaction to you is, quite frankly, disingenuous.

Quote:

I can't be expected to be the one that always is the better person, always steps back and shuts up, and always accepts the blame for things. I've done that in the past to try and calm things down, and it leads to nothing good.

Are you KIDDING me? You are always the better person? Even more amusingly, you always step back and shut up? By the time you step back, a whole lot of damage has usually been done. And when have you accepted the blame for things? The couple of times you've tried to accept ANY blame, you've either reneged or relapsed into this "well, really, it's because I'm so misunderstood/persecuted/disliked" excuse.

Drop this and post normally. Or don't.

I'm hearing a couple of positive things here, so I appreciate that... but I'm still hearing plenty of negative too... not that I thought it was easy.[/quote]

halplm wrote:

Anthy, it is certainly possible. I'm not now, nor have I ever claimed to be perfect or blameless, but I can't be expected to be the one that always is the better person, always steps back and shuts up, and always accepts the blame for things. I've done that in the past to try and calm things down, and it leads to nothing good.

I'm hearing a couple of positive things here, so I appreciate that... but I'm still hearing plenty of negative too... not that I thought it was easy.

As far as I know, there was only one perfect and blameless person ever, hal. And we know what happened to him.

I guess I wasn't asking you to step back and shut up, or to accept the blame for things, or to be perfect. What Ang's post made me do was think. And I wonder if you would end up thinking about that same point... maybe your perceptions of people's reactions to you is "off", a bit. Just as you feel other folk's reactions to you are "off".

Look, I'm not really all that good at being criticized, and I can understand that you feel as if you've had a bellyful of that, just now.

A few years back, I had the misfortune of getting hold of a diary, of sorts, written by my mother-in-law. (She actually sent it to the house! It was a spiral notebook, and she'd only written on ten pages or so... I guess she forgot what it was, and sent the notebook here so the kids could scribble on the rest. Oy.) I knew she wasn't my biggest fan, and BOY did she confirm my fears in that diary. Not fun.

One of the things she harped on was how negative I was about my husband, her son. Now truth be told, he deserved some of that. But after reading her words, I "watched" my own behavior and realized that I was pretty tough on him. I was never as bad as she wrote, but reading her words made me more aware of what I was doing. And just being aware of it helped me to change the situation, for the better.

I was hoping that if you would become aware of your own reactions, you could have a similar experience.

It's a thought.

tolkienpurist wrote:

Quote:

I can't be expected to be the one that always is the better person, always steps back and shuts up, and always accepts the blame for things. I've done that in the past to try and calm things down, and it leads to nothing good.

Are you KIDDING me? You are always the better person? Even more amusingly, you always step back and shut up? By the time you step back, a whole lot of damage has usually been done. And when have you accepted the blame for things? The couple of times you've tried to accept ANY blame, you've either reneged or relapsed into this "well, really, it's because I'm so misunderstood/persecuted/disliked" excuse.

I didn't say I DID those things, I said that's what it seems everyone asks me to do when there's a problem... without asking that of anyoen else involved. I am not the only one to blame, and shouldn't be the only one asked to change.

Anthy, I have many times stated I'm willing to discuss these things, and I still am. I am not willing to state that It's ALL my problem, and the people that do treat me badly are entitled to do that.