board77

Okay. So pretty much, listen to what Ang had to say (about the only person you can control = yourself), or don't. If you are in any way to blame, then you be the one to change - and then let the other folks who are to blame be responsible for their own actions. If you take yourself out of the problem, then it'll all be on them (whoever they might be.)

tolkienpurist wrote:

Okay. So pretty much, listen to what Ang had to say (about the only person you can control = yourself), or don't. If you are in any way to blame, then you be the one to change - and then let the other folks who are to blame be responsible for their own actions. If you take yourself out of the problem, then it'll all be on them (whoever they might be.)

except no one around here calls them on it! except me! so what you're saying I have to do is just shut up and never say anything. I can't express my opinion about anything, because as soon as I do, I have to back down and shut up, because I'm blamed for causing trouble for expressing my opinion!

So, the people doing this, can silence opposing opinion just by claiming people are causing trouble! Unless other people are held accountable for doing this, there is no point in expressing differing opinions! Is that what we want here? the people that complain the loudest about opposing viewpoints get their way.

It's working so far...

halplm wrote:

what you're saying I have to do is just shut up and never say anything. I can't express my opinion about anything, because as soon as I do, I have to back down and shut up, because I'm blamed for causing trouble for expressing my opinion!

Okay. Now I'm gonna give you an example/put my money where my mouth is. If I continue to express my opinion about this, it's going to cause unnecessary drama (since Lali's emoticon very aptly describes how I'm feeling about this conversation right now.) So I'm going to back down and shut up. Have a good evening.

halplm wrote:

tolkienpurist wrote:

Okay. So pretty much, listen to what Ang had to say (about the only person you can control = yourself), or don't. If you are in any way to blame, then you be the one to change - and then let the other folks who are to blame be responsible for their own actions. If you take yourself out of the problem, then it'll all be on them (whoever they might be.)

except no one around here calls them on it! except me! so what you're saying I have to do is just shut up and never say anything. I can't express my opinion about anything, because as soon as I do, I have to back down and shut up, because I'm blamed for causing trouble for expressing my opinion!

So, the people doing this, can silence opposing opinion just by claiming people are causing trouble! Unless other people are held accountable for doing this, there is no point in expressing differing opinions! Is that what we want here? the people that complain the loudest about opposing viewpoints get their way.

It's working so far...

hal -

It seems to me that you are one doing a lot of loud complaining. Are you getting your way? Just asking.

I do not know how to suggest this because I really do not want to offend you, but I do think you need help with dealing with other people, you seem to have a persecution complex, and I do not mean that as an insult. You simply cannot expect to get on with life dealing with other people the way that you seem to think that you should or can or might be able to do currently. I am not out to dismiss you or call you a troublemaker or anything of the sort, but I do find that you simply cannot see anyone's side on things except for your own, and so many others have tried to point this out, it IS getting tiresome.

You are indeed nearly an army of one fighting a battle that nobody else sees. How much more bluntly do people need to state it? No one here is trying to ban you, is that what you are after? No one here is trying to dismiss you, is that what you are after? No one here is trying to blame you for stuff, is that what you are after? Fer crying out loud, most of us cannot even figure out what it is that you DO want, except to be some sort of angst ridden pity figure. Well, you have my pity, but there is not much that you can do with that, and I mean that sincerely. You need to take what you want and go with it yourself, nobody else here can do it for you.

I also will give you my hope that you can figure out what it is that you exactly want and achieve it, and if you want support from people here, you will find that it is also freely and sincerely given. You need to decide what it is that you want, and if you want to be a martyr for some cause that only exists in your head, then fine, I think you achieved that already.

what do I want?

halplm wrote:

It's just US. This is Board77. This is a community that likes to argue. We like to debate. We like to help our friends. We're good people, and good people like to stay together, even when they violently disagree.

So what's the problem? We've forgotten that. We've forgotten that the people we seem to always disagree with are good people too. We ALL have. We've all got people in little boxes where we know how react to them in a standard way. Hal is the drama-maker. Holby is the jokester who likes to post pictures of scantily clad women. Ang is the monkey.

Labels cause us to forget there's a person on the other side.

I want people to remember that.

I would like to think I am one that is trying to see Halplm the person and not the poster, but, you make it difficult to do so when you go around accusing all of the rest of us of the very thing which you find so personally offensive yourself.

We too do not exist in little boxes, we have rights and feelings and to be honest here, hal, yes, you have offended many of us, and for the most part, we shut up about it.

I'm not saying EVERYONE is doing this. In fact, I would say it's a very few. But the problem is... when they do, no one blinks an eye... and it could be several at once... and still no one blinks an eye. And suddenly, several people are complaining about me, and everyone is wondering why I'm causing trouble again!

TW, I have generally admired your ability to not rush to judgement, and I recognize you're trying to see things right now, and I appreciate it. I don't honestly expect any more from you. You are not one I worry about. I think the most I would appreciate is if someone jumps in... and say... talks about gypsy curses... and I don't jump right in and react to what I can only assume is some sort of baiting or whatever... that people do recognize I am excercising restraint... and maybe for once give me a mark in the "plus" column.

I get PMs from people saying they agree with me, but they aren't interested in posting about it, because they don't want to cause trouble, or open themselves up to the attacks I always deal with.

I don't blame them.

Writing this on a whim, so I'll unsubscribe afterwards as I don't want to hear the responses, if there are any, but I think I've hurt hal in the past and maybe to balance that out somewhat I'll say this here instead of in private.

I do agree with a lot of things he's said over the past several months and I really haven't said so because it's not worth the heartache of putting up with snarky responses. It's been ages since I visited b77 expecting friendly ears or open minds. So no, I don't say anything anymore as it's not worth the circular arguments, personal digs, and condescension that follows. It probably stung because I thought y'all were above that, and I accept responsibility for making such a mistake, not that it became any more fun to see the same people arguing about the same things every single time and it all coming back to hal and what a trouble-maker he was. Like they should get free digs in because it doesn't count if he's a problem poster!

Maybe at one time, things could have been solved with a group hug and a pint, but now it seems like folks are dedicated to continuing their animosity towards each other, so I just want no part of it. I can't conceive of a single thing to say that won't result in the kind of comments that make me want to throttle a person, because that's all I've gotten over the last year anyway. That or ignored entirely. I don't care if it could be worse or happens everywhere, I can't deal with it.

So I'm sorry for not getting more involved in these pleasant discussions, hal, I just don't have faith in people here anymore and saw no point in trying. Mine is not a voice worth having in your corner anyway. If y'all can work things out, great, but my interest in it kind of went out the door. I don't have the personality type to deal with no hope and nothing but negativity. Best of luck to everyone else.




*E*

*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R* wrote:

I do agree with a lot of things he's said over the past several months and I really haven't said so because it's not worth the heartache of putting up with snarky responses. It's been ages since I visited b77 expecting friendly ears or open minds. So no, I don't say anything anymore as it's not worth the circular arguments, personal digs, and condescension that follows.

I think that when there have been snarky arguments, personal digs, etc., *E*, it was because of the tone in which the original posters were talking in the first place (yes, I am referring to hal, but not exclusively so.) I have a hard time believing that ANY post you made would receive similar responses.

tolkienpurist wrote:

*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R* wrote:

I do agree with a lot of things he's said over the past several months and I really haven't said so because it's not worth the heartache of putting up with snarky responses. It's been ages since I visited b77 expecting friendly ears or open minds. So no, I don't say anything anymore as it's not worth the circular arguments, personal digs, and condescension that follows.

I think that when there have been snarky arguments, personal digs, etc., *E*, it was because of the tone in which the original posters were talking in the first place (yes, I am referring to hal, but not exclusively so.) I have a hard time believing that ANY post you made would receive similar responses.

There are two problems here. First that it's ok to make snarky comments, personal digs, or anything like that, just becuase you don't like the tone of someone else. Those should never take place, and never be accepted. How would they EVER add to a discussion except to add fuel to a fire so to speak? How are they ever acceptable? How is it ever not a personal attack on the person YOU have judged to be guilty of a "tone?"

Second, anyone who has backed me up, or disagreed with the same people I disagree with, gets treated with the same disrespect and condescension, that I am, at least in the context of whatever discussion is going on. The only difference between them and me, is that they don't generally stick around when they are being attacked, where I don't back down in the face of personal attacks.

Nobody here is trying to cut down those who support halplm's stance and agree with him, and I have not noted any case of deliberate baiting or trolling occurring here. Yes, posters are trying to speak honestly and frankly, and that is all GOOD.

May I simply remind people that reading responses made by others is open to all sorts of interpretations, if one is looking for offense, it will be likely found, where maybe nothing of the sort was intended.

Hal, you clearly have decided to return to B77, why not just go over to some of the other forums and start posting again? Really, the more you sit here and argue, the more you are not going forward and realizing that people do mostly like you here. Heck, nobody is liked 100%, I dare say that I am one of them. But, what B77 is about IS the friendships and the community, not kevetching about everything all of the time. Buy one of those little worry handfist kneeding thingies, please. :D Get a dartboard and put up names of others on different parts of the target and toss away. PLEASE!! In the meantime, I hope I will see you post in other places, "jadavel" just got kicked off of TORC, he can be found over in the Symp for now, go strike up some good philosophical debates.

The Watcher wrote:

Really, the more you sit here and argue, the more you are not going forward and realizing that people do mostly like you here.

Should we consider banning hal?
Yes. [ 19 ]
No. [ 18 ]

Whatever your point is, yov, you're not helping.

BTW, I just made it 19-19.
I've been largely unsympathetic to hal up to now, but your constant interruptions of snark are starting to win me over to his point of view just a little bit. I think the whole idea of even having this poll is bullshit in the first place.

Not that I don't think hal brings this shit on himself a lot of the time. I've been pretty clear about that. But that's beside the point I'm making here. My point here is that you, yov, are acting like a dickhead. Either say something constructive and of substance or shut the fuck up.

yovargas wrote:

The Watcher wrote:

Really, the more you sit here and argue, the more you are not going forward and realizing that people do mostly like you here.

Should we consider banning hal?
Yes. [ 19 ]
No. [ 18 ]

I would like to see what would happen in a poll that listed me as the proposed banished.

Hey, we strive for tolerance here, we do not want to get all huffy and start banning people and quarantining them and all, do we? Hal may have had complaints against him but that is in the past. We now go forward. That is what people do, holding grudges and perceptions are personal issues which do not enter into anything here as far as the board will be treated.

In any case, I find that this subject is actually rather insulting even in its own right, by merely the thread title. I certainly would not like to see "Should We Consider Banning The Watcher" with a poll and a thread. That despite Jude's current siggie pic. :D

Okay, I get it, I need to get digital photos so that you all know I am who I say I am. Sigh (can I admit that I HATE having my pic taken, even when I was younger and much prettier?)

I think you've misunderstood something, TW. I and *E* and anyone else that might agree, are not talking about this thread, or this last week, or anything right now specifically. It's a pattern over months and years.

And no, I've not "come back" because when I've done that in the past, and tried to put the past behind me, and try to assume that things will get better... things might be great for a few months... but then I'll express an opinion... say... on how the charter is proposed being changed... and I'll disagree, and suddently I'll be the instigator again, and nothing will have changed.

TW wrote:

May I simply remind people that reading responses made by others is open to all sorts of interpretations, if one is looking for offense, it will be likely found, where maybe nothing of the sort was intended.

This is exactly it. And combined with TP's statement that implies it's somehow ok to be snarky back to someone you percieve has offended you... we get to my fundamental point. If people always look at every post I make as tryin to offend or make trouble... they will find it, and many apparently think this gives them liscense to attack me or be snarky, or just interrupt any discussion going on with me where they don't like what I say.

If we can keep figuring this out, and I think we're making progress, then maybe I will feel comfortable coming back soon.

That is not at all what I was implying. It is never okay (or a good thing) to make snarky comments or personal digs. However, there is (to me) a difference between:

1. Making snarky comments or personal digs to a given person with whom you have become deeply frustrated over time; and

2. Making snarky comments or personal digs to anyone who holds a given point of view.

The first is not good, and should be discouraged. The second (in my view) is worse, because it allows proponents of one view to "gang up" on everyone who simply holds a particular viewpoint. I have not seen the second happen in recent memory at b77, and I hope it will not. As far as I know, *E* would only have something personally to worry about if the second was true, because I don't know of anyone who is deeply frustrated with her to the point that they'd make snarky responses to her posts. That's all I was saying.

How can you be posting here (31 recent posts) and yet not have "come back"?

Angbasdil wrote:

Whatever your point is, yov, you're not helping.

BTW, I just made it 19-19.
I've been largely unsympathetic to hal up to now, but your constant interruptions of snark are starting to win me over to his point of view just a little bit. I think the whole idea of even having this poll is bullshit in the first place.

Not that I don't think hal brings this shit on himself a lot of the time. I've been pretty clear about that. But that's beside the point I'm making here. My point here is that you, yov, are acting like a dickhead. Either say something constructive and of substance or shut the fuck up.

While I think you could have been a little more polite I completely agree with you Ang.

Yov I love ya but you are coming off as a big jerk by being antagonistic and unhelpful. Your poll sucks too.

Yov wrote:

eta - and whle that last post may not have been substantive, I think it's a pretty damn important point to keep in mind that hal's action have made him unwelcome here to roughly half the board.

Yeah okay sure...no. I would be willing to bet a fair amount of money that people who've left the board came back just to vote against hal. Why do I think that? Because it's become quite apparent how vindictive a lot of you are. And as much as hal has been argumentative he's never tried to cut someone down as a person as others have in the past and try to currently. Yes, he's responded by attacking back but it was never his goal to make someone feel like a worthless piece of shit by finding that one thing in their post to target and complain, argue or debate about.

Is hal a saint? Hell no. But I don't think we should ban him either.

What hal wants is for people to recognize that he alone isn't the only person who's been a part of the drama. He knows he's part of it because he gets the most shit for it, but to pretend that he alone did it is annoying. And if you all would just ACKNOWLEDGE this he'll stop, hopefully.

I'm tired of hearing hal complain about it and I'm tried of everyone else's sarcastic, rude remarks when they clearly don't understand what hal is trying to say. Alatar is you want to see that as I think you're stupid that's your prerogative.

See, this is the big issue. Hal seems to believe that if everyone could just see what he's getting at we'd all smack our foreheads and say "By Jove, he's right!". It leaves no room for us to simply disagree with his opinion. Because if we disagree, he has to assume we just didn't understand what he meant so he has to repeat it.

Let me ask a question here. If you feel you're unfairly victimised and are always accused of getting involved in drama whats the worst possible thing you can do?

Lets see. Well, I suppose you could state that everyone hates you and nobody respects you so you're leaving the board. Then you could continue to read the board for months waiting for some drama to start and jump right back in again.

If Hal is serious about being part of this community he needs to get himself into the main board and out of the drama threads, because NOBODY is going to change their mind based on the last weeks performance.

If anyone wants to read that post as sarcastic and rude, thats their prerogative also.

Alatar wrote:

See, this is the big issue. Hal seems to believe that if everyone could just see what he's getting at we'd all smack our foreheads and say "By Jove, he's right!". It leaves no room for us to simply disagree with his opinion. Because if we disagree, he has to assume we just didn't understand what he meant so he has to repeat it.

Let me ask a question here. If you feel you're unfairly victimised and are always accused of getting involved in drama whats the worst possible thing you can do?

Lets see. Well, I suppose you could state that everyone hates you and nobody respects you so you're leaving the board. Then you could continue to read the board for months waiting for some drama to start and jump right back in again.

If Hal is serious about being part of this community he needs to get himself into the main board and out of the drama threads, because NOBODY is going to change their mind based on the last weeks performance.

If anyone wants to read that post as sarcastic and rude, thats their prerogative also.

First, I just want to clarify that I didn't think you were the only one making rude and or sarcastic comments. I apologize if you felt singled out.

Second, I am inclined to agree with you about hal getting on with it and staying out of drama filled threads. People's opinions aren't going to change overnight nor should they. Trust is earned and all that.

Third, I also completely agree with you that people are allowed to understand what a person is saying and flat out disagree. In fact I had this conversation tonight (and many other nights) with hal. It's something he and I still don't see eye to eye on due to some sort of barrier that we keep running into. It's not about people disagreeing with one another it's about those in the majority wanting those in the minority to shut up about their views.

*RANGER NOTE*

This thread consists of posts split from the "Should we ban Hal" thread. Where possible I have tried to keep only the substantive posts and ignored sideswipes and driveby comments. If anyone feels I have been too heavy handed in the split please accept that it was a judgment call and I stand by my decisions.

Alatar