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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 1:37 am 
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Input from members begins in the middle of page 2
_________________________________________________________________
This time for real.

I know that a committee was already self-organizing in another thread, but it seems to have gotten swept away by other things in the thread, and no committee formulation thread was created. So just consider this as moving that to a place where it is easy to see, and if people would volunteer one more time in this thread it would be appreciated. I'll update the committee list in this first post.

Estel also started a thread for this purpose some time ago, and that also seems to have died a natural death because people discussed divergent improvements in the thread but without setting up a committee and going to the jury room and creating goals for what would be done.

Whether anyone wants to see me be the one to call for a charter amendment committee is something I will talk about later. Technically I have to be on any charter committee that forms now because technically this is the charter committee that should have formed after I invoked extraordinary powers in December, 2005.

Quote:
¶2: Amendments to the Charter[/size]
Ratified by the membership August 8, 2005

A committee to Amend the Charter can be convened under three circumstances:
• A Ranger has exercised Extraordinary powers requiring review in accordance with Article 3, ¶5. The committee will decide whether the circumstance is anticipated to occur again with sufficient frequency to justify an Amendment to the Charter;
• An Initiative to amend the Charter is brought by the Mayor, or by two current Rangers, or by five members regardless of their status;
• The quorum as calculated from a moving average falls below 20% and the board must reconsider participation requirements for Binding Votes and ratification of Charter Amendments.


We are arguably required to amend the charter for all three reasons above. Whether or not River needed to invoke Extraordinary Powers is questionable, imo, but I invoked them in December of 2005 and no committee bothered to show up and do the job at that time in spite of TED's best efforts to get it going. Our quorum is way below 20% of registered members by now ... have we even got 60 people regularly posting here much less voting? And finally, I'm still a member of this board and I can call a committee if I want to. :P

(So can CG. And if people want to work on his issue, we'll just avoid that issue in the committee I'm calling for and they can do their own thing.)

So, I propose a charter amendment committee for the following purpose:

The following charter elements would not be addressed by this particular committee:
• OUR MISSION STATEMENT
• OUR KEY PRINCIPLES
• OUR ADMINISTRATIVE AND GOVERNANCE PROCEDURES
Article 1: Board77 is a member-moderated board
Article 2: Member Rights and Responsibilities
Article 6: Age Restricted Forum
Article 8: Policy on Thread Deletions
Article 9: Policy on Forum Readability
Article 10: Goals
• RESOLUTIONS OF THE MEMBERSHIP

The committe would propose whether to repeal in their entirety the following elements:
• OWNERSHIP OF BOARD77 -- repeal and replace with short description of current ‘ownership’ and payment arrangements
• OUR ADMINISTRATIVE AND GOVERNANCE PROCEDURES
Article 4: Office of the Mayor -- repeal and transfer responsibilities to the rangers (includes amending other paragraphs of the charter that are affected)
Article 5: Dispute Resolution in the Outside Forum
..... ¶7: Hearings to Remove an Elected Official
Article 11: Standing Committees and Ad hoc Committees
.....¶3: Election Committee
.....¶4: Committee for Technical Support
.....¶5: Committee for Business Matters -- this content probably belongs under the new “ownership” description, if anywhere

The committe would propose how to simplify and improve the following elements:
• OUR ADMINISTRATIVE AND GOVERNANCE PROCEDURES
Article 3: Rangers (Administrators)
.....¶3: Selection of Rangers -- if considered necessary
.....¶5: Special and Emergency powers of Rangers
.....¶7: How to Contest the Decision of a Ranger
.....¶8: When is a Ranger Removed from Office -- if considered necessary
Article 5: Dispute Resolution in the Outside Forum
.....¶3: Hearings and Selection of a Jury for Hearings
.....¶4: Procedure for Hearings
.....¶5: Procedure for Hearings on a Ban
.....¶6: Procedure for Hearings to Remove a Ranger
.....¶8: Appealing the Decision of a Jury
.....¶9: Offenses That Merit a Penalty
Article 7: Binding Votes and Initiatives of the Membership
Article 11: Standing Committees and Ad hoc Committees -- Articles 7 and 11 can probably be just collapsed into one because we only need to preserve initiative and voting rights as charter elements, not spend a page detailing how to do it
Article 12: Ratification and Amendments -- if considered necessary
_________________________

The charter requires me to be on its decimation commitee, and so I am willing to do it. I don't feel qualified, however, to make proposals for specific changes because I don't post here often enough, and am unlikely to be spending lots of time posting anywhere in the immediate future. I'm involved right now in a book collaboration and am trying to reorganize my life after caring for elderly parents for 14 years.

But I know what steps have to be followed to go from idea to concrete proposal, like creating a thread where all committee names are in one place that doesn't have other conversation in it (above), drafting the agenda for approval (above), and then doing the actual proposals in the jury room where people are undistracted. I don't mind assembling the donkey work of this sort, and I don't mind telling you what things in the charter looked perfectly clear to me but were obviously incomprehensible to the posters trying to use the charter, and therefore should be simplified. But what you want the final product to look like is really not for me to say and I'm not going to argue with anyone about what should or should not be in the charter.

Because the amount of amendment needed at this time is so extensive, i.e. whole sections needing to be removed, my one and only substantive suggestion would be that the old charter have it's thread title changed to "Old Charter" and be locked and moved to Michel Delving forever. And the new charter be repackaged and reordered and renumbered as the committee sees fit, so that basically you have a new constitution to present to the members.

edit to add: personally, I think this can be done before Christmas if people just decide to do it.

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Last edited by Jnyusa on Sun 30 Nov , 2008 11:48 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 1:44 am 
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I appreciate your efforts and hope something concrete comes from this. I'm not sure if it is doabl;e with the current tenor of the boards, but it is worth a try.

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 1:52 am 
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So, you're on the committee, right Holby?

River should be too, just in case there's any question about whether she did need to invoke her extraordinary powers ... (lightning bolt sticker and cape sold separately).

I looked for where people were volunteering before and could not find which darn thread it was in ... some thread where everyone was fighting, that's all I remember. But I think Alatar volunteered, and so did CG but he may want his own committee now to handle a different question.

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 1:54 am 
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Excellent, this is moving forward.

So, can my different question be handled with this committee?

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 1:57 am 
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I believe it was in this thread The one week ban on sf and CG.


Thanks for all your work on this. :hug: I suppose I can volunteer if needed, but I don't really feel qualified.

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 2:02 am 
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No Jn I wasn't on the committee. I made Rebecca take my place. I think some new blood would be a good thing and her blood is a lot newer than mine. :)

Obviously if the committee is needing I will join, but I prefer to hear different voices. I am partly responsible for the original charter and have had to listen to the griping over the years about that. I want to see some of the gripers step up and have their turn at bat. And Rebecca. :P

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 2:05 am 
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CG, on the agenda next to the two sections that would conceivably contain the provisions you want (Sections 3 and 8 in Article 3), I wrote "if considered necessary."

You certainly have a right to ask that your particular concern be addressed, but it should be up to the committee to decide whether they want to deal with that question at the present time in the form you have presented it, since that would basically be adding a whole new topic to the charter rather than streamlining what's already there.

It may also be, though, that in the process of simplifying what's already there, some other provisions would end up being drafted that you would consider adequate to address your concerns as well. I think you would just have to see how that played out in discussion, and if you still want a new topic added that the committee chose not to add, you can start a second amendment committee.

There's nothing to stop you from having a committee that deals directly with your concern, but I agree that it would be more efficient if it could be satisfied in one way or another as part of the overall amendment process.

Holby wrote:
I am partly responsible for the original charter and have had to listen to the griping over the years about that. I want to see some of the gripers step up and have their turn at bat.


That's exactly how I feel about it. But we've gotten off to a false start several times and I find that frustrating. I'm sure that once a committee gets some momentum I'll be able to watch from the sidelines.

Rebecca, you are certainly qualified. No one is unqualified. It's your board, and you should be able to say how you want it to work. I agree with Holby that it would be great it you were on the committee.

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 2:18 am 
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:suspicious: Thanks a lot, Holby. :P


I sent PMs to the people who had volunteered before and hasn't made it over to this thread. If I missed anyone, it was just because there were a lot of posts, nothing personal, I swear!

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 2:20 am 
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Rebecca, thanks for the link. There was some confusion about what sort of committee was being formed, but here are the people who signed up, in order:

• River - called for the committee under Article 3
• Lali
• Estel
• hal - having a stake in the matter, as then understood
• Farawen
• Jude
• Elsha
• Ara-anna
• CG - having a stake in the matter, as then understood
• sf - having a stake in the matter, as then understood
• Eru - agreed to serve as mayor (Eru, remind me sometime to tell you the story of the elected Prime Minister of Burma)
• Jnyusa - I can assist Eru with loremaster duties; though I had my name removed from the list I do know the current charter pretty thoroughly

I would suggest TED and Rebecca as the last two, because TED has expressed interest in this so many times and it would be good for the committee to have Rebecca on it.

Also, perhaps sf and hal could confirm that they want to be on the committee if it's purpose is charter amendment, because it wasn't clear first time around what kind of committee was being offered.

p.s. oh wait, I counted wrong ... that would be fourteen ... well let's see who wants to remain for this agenda

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Last edited by Jnyusa on Sat 29 Nov , 2008 2:28 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 2:21 am 
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Well I'll be here for moral support. :D
And really you are qualified. I don't know anyone more honest and unpretentious so you get my vote.

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 3:22 am 
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I do volunteer (again). For the record.


Lali

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 10:31 am 
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I am thinking about volunteering for this, but for two things:

a, in order to change the charter, one should understand it, and I am clueless

b, I don't really want to get caught up in something involving Hal, CG and SF all posting in and arguing about one thread especially since they would only be involved to promote their own personal agendas and for their own personal gain rather than to do something that is good for the board as a whole. Frankly, none of those posters could do anything to convince me that they're not totally in it for themselves and for no other reason. The very fact that they are unwilling to put each other on ignore for the sake of peace for the rest of the members of the board tells me that any input they would have into a charter committee would be selfserving.

A charter committee is supposed to be about all the members of the board. I really don't know if I can be involved in something where three of the people on the committee have no interest in participating except in changing the board to make it better for themselves rather than making it better for everybody.



Bluntly stated, but... :shrug:

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 2:05 pm 
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hal let me know that he doesn't want to be on this committee.

Ara-anna offered (again) to be on it.


Estel wrote:
a, in order to change the charter, one should understand it, and I am clueless

This is pretty much why I said I didn't feel qualified to be on the committee.

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 2:13 pm 
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Thanks for the PM, Rebecca, and yes, I do volunteer (again).

However, I wholeheartedly agree with Estel's post. I'm not sure much will be accomplished on a committee set up to amend the Charter, when both sf and CG are on it (minus hal, as he chose not to participate). I'm sorry, I just don't see it.


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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 2:22 pm 
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I'm still willing to be on the committee.

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 3:01 pm 
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I'm willing to be on it, provided SF and CG are not. Thats as clear as I can make it.

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 3:40 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 6:14 pm 
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While I would be happy to help on any committee to help the Board, I would agree that I as well as CG or Hal should NOT be on any committee that is speaking to issues that arose because of us. That would seem to make sense.

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 9:49 pm 
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Estel and Rebecca, feeling clueless about the current charter should not deter anyone from joining, in my opinion. You both have ideas about how useful and accessible you want a document like this to be, and that should be enough.

Regarding the disputes between sf and CG and how they might affect the committee ... my advice is to work the agenda, and anything that's not on the agenda does not get discussed.

It might be a plus to have both guys on the committee because we won't be tempted to use them as examples (!) and will focus instead on the generic problems that might arise with any small group of posters.

You know, even though 21 people worked on the first charter, it was so focused on avoiding specific problems we experienced on TORC that it: (a) got too wordy about stuff that will never happen here, and (b) ignored stuff that probably would happen here.

I understand people's hesitation to walk into a quagmire, but I see advantages to having both sf and CG present as well.

But ... it's up to each individual what they want to do. The rule says ;) ... take people in the order in which they volunteer until you hit 13. So it wouldn't be kosher to throw people off the committee because others don't want to work with them. The reason I asked sf and CG to confirm is because the nature of this committee is a little bit different from what was presented to them at first, and they should have the opportunity to either commit to the agenda above or decide they are not interested.

(I'll edit the committee list so far into the first post now. Rebecca, I'm not sure whether your last post was an acceptance or not. And I'll await confirmation from those who expressed hesitations.)

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Last edited by Jnyusa on Sat 29 Nov , 2008 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov , 2008 9:59 pm 
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Jnyusa wrote:
It might be a plus to have both guys on the committee because we won't be tempted to use them as examples (!) and will focus instead on the generic problems that might arise with any small group of posters.


In a sense, I think that's part of the problem with the "let's consult the charter" approach - by and large, there hasn't been a generic kind of problem that needs to be addressed. IMO, just about any time there's some problem that the Rangers need or are asked to address, it's a different thing. Because of this, I strongly believe that any problems that arise should be dealt with on a case by case basis. The Rangers should never feel handicapped from doing what they feel is the sensical and practical thing in one given situation just because it didn't happen to be in "the Charter".


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