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PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 11:52 pm 
b77 whipping boy
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This is the third attempt to have this discussion without it spiraling into off topic insanity. I would have prefered the topic be split, and the off topic stuff removed, but that request has been denied or ignored by all rangers present.

Here are the on topic posts from the second version of the thread, which is somewhere in the bikeracks. Well, actually, I guess only Di's post, and my response were totally on point, but the rest fits and is not hostile, so I have no problem with it here. I imagine it would not have been split off if a ranger had done this.

I would also like to point out that while there is no rule being broken... the open mocking of me in the turf is part of the problem I've noticed below, and is unappreciated.

halplm wrote:
Holby suggested restarting this thread, with the hope it won't degenerate into pointless bickering. Below is my original post. I have bolded what I consider the meat of the post (although it's here in its entirety) that most people seemed to ignore last time.

Quote:
There is no point whatsoever to trying to have discussions on this board where people disagree. Minority points of view are attacked, abused, and demeaned to the point that people are uncomfortalbe expressing them.


It should be made clear, thatnot ALL minority points of view are attacked, and not everyone participates in those attacks.

However, it is consistant, which is why I started this thread. To be blunt, I can't post anything without expecting some sort of negative thing being said about me personally. Even if it is JUST ME, I would hope other people would consider this a problem.

Quote:

ALL attempts to correct this imbalance are met with hostility, anger, and further attacks and demeaning posts.


Even this original post was treated with disdain and "oh, hal's causing trouble again." Is it so wrong to be upset that this continues to happen to me? Is it wrong to want to try to correct that?

Quote:
The rest of the board is fine. Anything discussing fun stuff, sad stuff, sharing personal life stories, and celebrating good things that happen to friends congregating here are all great and fun.

It would be my suggestion that the symposium be removed permanently from this board, as it is an unmanagable forum for divisiveness and hatred. You want to argue politics or anything else, there are a million other places on the internet to do so.


People seemed to fixate on this, and rather than examine the problem of divisiveness that I was bringing up, claim my idea of removing the symposium was not workable, as most of it is fine. I agree, because most of the time people agree... discussing serious things in one place away from fun stuff makes sense. However, when you bring in people that will not actually discuss ideas, but will only try to "win" an argument, it creates division and hatred. That is what I think needs to go away.

Quote:
If this board is supposed to be about a bunch of people that like each other's company hanging out and having a good time, it's failing completely.

I cannot even remotely contemplate how people that I have considered friends, have respected, have defended, and have joined together with to form this community, could possibly defend what's going on right now with respect to the abuse, and setting up of presidence for even more extreme abuse.

Fundamentally, what is being argued about right now, is not "how do we all make this place better for anyone that wants to participate." Instead, it is "how nasty can we be and get away with it while pretending to get along with everyone that wants to participate?"

If the board is about mutual respect and everyone getting along... then when some small minority of posters, who have views that are a significant minority, express the sentament that they are being treated badly and unfairly... there should be one response... that response being "how can we help you feel more welcome? How can we make this place a more comfortable place for you to express your minority viewpoint?"

Instead, the only response that is seen is "shut up, and don't give us crap about treating you badly. If you feel uncomfortable, then just ignore the people making you uncomfortable, and don't talk to them, or listen to them, or interact in any threads they might post in that you disagree with." In other words... "your opinion is so far in the minority, that it disrupts the entire board when you express it, so don't."

That's hardly a board built on mutual respect.

It always comes back to this same point for me personally. Since the days when the charter was an issue, when I was accused and convicted of harrassing another poster over stuff I don't even remember... since the board was started to attempt a place not like other places, where you could be yourself, and not fear heavy handed moderation, but also not fear heavy handed personal attacks and abusive rhetoric.

It's all about getting along and having fun... except for those few people who disagree with most of us... we want no part of them, and they only disrupt the rest of us, and any time they bring it up, we will ignore it, and put them down, and shut them up any way we can. If we can't ban them, we'll shun them... put them on ignore, or allow bullies to attack them and do nothing about it. We won't care if they are attacked, but gosh darn it, if they say a word about how we're doing that, we'll accuse them of board wide disruptions, and make sure everyone knows how bad and evil they are for questioning the sanctity of total agreement and the utopia of unanimity of opinion.

The hypocracy of this place disgusts me.

And the realization of that hurts me more deeply than I think any of you can truly understand.



Nin wrote:
Hal, usually I avoid posting in all threads in which you post. All. If you post in thread I will think twice before I put in one word there again. I did not put you on ignore, but I am tempted to do so and I just ignore you all by myself usually.

So, this is a huge exception and actually even while typing I wonder why I do so.

I admire Holby for giving you the idea of restarting this thread. I have no hope - because you don't want any other opinion, you want people to agree on your way of seeing the world and this board and the problem with.

Now, my way to see the world and this board is very different: yes, this board has a problem: it is you. You are the problem of this bord. Every time something happens with which you happen to disagree, you derail, you whine, you open at leat three threads in different fora and you claim to be the victim. I refuse to be a ranger because of you.

Now, hold this for a personal attack or for one of your famous ad hominem: I don't care! I don't think that you (or also sf, for the record) have any debating problem, but that both of you are unhappy with their lives and have too much time so you spend it here on bullshit and fake arguments, forcing other people (like holby) to play kindergarten. I'm sick of you.

I will not get back into this thread, I do not wish to discuss with you and just kindly ask you not to post too much, and especially not in my threads, because I wish to keep them open.



halplm wrote:
I'm sorry you feel that way, nin, but as you say, it has nothign to do with this thread, although a good example of what I've been forced to get used to.



Alatar wrote:
Hal, for one second stop and think. Instead of saying "Look at poor me what I have to put up with". Ask yourself instead why someone as basically kind hearted and decent as Nin has given up trying to converse with you.

Do you know ANYONE else that Nin can't get along with?



Di of Long Cleeve wrote:
I posted a big long response and it got eaten. :bawl:

Ah, well. I will therefore respond to just a few of your points, Hal:

halplm wrote:
There is no point whatsoever to trying to have discussions on this board where people disagree. Minority points of view are attacked, abused, and demeaned to the point that people are uncomfortalbe expressing them.


If you are in a minority viewpoint, you have a choice: either you defend your minority viewpoint with maturity, without getting defensive about being the minority, or you go somewhere where you are NOT in a minority viewpoint. You have a choice: nobody is holding a gun to your head to post anywhere.

If I am the only Christian posting on a forum where I know my Christian beliefs will be rigorously challenged, I have a choice: either I hold my ground, without becoming all defensive and pissy that I am in a minority, or I leave the kitchen if I can't take the heat. :)

Good heavens, the Internet is full of communities everywhere that can satisfy our need for online discussion and communication in some way. It's not like the online world only consists of B77 ... there is a multitude of choices out there about how you can spend your online time.

Disagreement is absolutely inevitable at some point on a messageboard. And all messageboards attract some posters who have a combative style. It's not like everyone who argues their viewpoint in a combative manner is automatically your enemy. Vigorous disagreement is not the same as personal attack.

Quote:
However, it is consistant, which is why I started this thread. To be blunt, I can't post anything without expecting some sort of negative thing being said about me personally. Even if it is JUST ME, I would hope other people would consider this a problem.


It seems to me that the prime problem is your ongoing difficulties with sf. If neither of you are willing to compromise and stop sniping at each other, I fail to see why that should be everybody else's problem. This is a member-moderated board. Nobody else can moderate you or sf except yourselves. :cool:

Quote:
It always comes back to this same point for me personally. Since the days when the charter was an issue, when I was accused and convicted of harrassing another poster over stuff I don't even remember... since the board was started to attempt a place not like other places, where you could be yourself, and not fear heavy handed moderation, but also not fear heavy handed personal attacks and abusive rhetoric.


Well, Hal ... the vicious debacle here of November 2005 convinced me for good that member-moderated boards cannot work when a handful of posters refuse to moderate themselves and indulge in wholesale, vitriolic behaviour. That spiteful chaos drove a ton of posters away, including myself. I've never posted here regularly since that time.

Fortunately, B77 did recover and there is still a nice little online community here. :)

But I will be very blunt: I prefer traditionally run messageboards, where I know nuisance posters can be banned permanently. I never miss a rude, contentious poster when they've gone. I prefer to spend my online time with friendly people, thank you very much. :)

Yes, I have known moderators who have abused their powers and made bad decisions. But I also consider posters who refuse to moderate themselves to be equally abusive. As Jnyusa said very wisely here a few days ago, a poster with a keyboard and a permanent grudge is as big a tyrant as a mod with a permanent banning button. I totally agree with her.



halplm wrote:
I don't have a grudge.

I have a problem that I am attacked when I post. We can go back and forth and hem and haw over what I mean by "attacked."

I don't know what can be done any more. SF will not stop. No one else cares that he won't stop. When he does not stop, other people pile on and say I'M the problem.

There is no way for me to post, becaus SF WILL TRY TO SILENCE ME, and he will have help. If he did nothing, others wouldn't do what he does, because they'd just include me in the conversation, if they don't have me on ignore, of course.

But SF WILL not leave me alone, so maybe it is all a problem between SF and myself. However, it is not a problem with me, because I do not dodge ideas and questions.

I did not want this thread to be about this, I want it to be about the fact that no one does anything, except enable this behavior.


Di, I appreciate your attempts to engage in this discussion, both in the first thread, and in this, I shall try to respond.

I'm not interested in hearing a bunch of people agree with me. I find that nauseating... to see people slap each other on the back all the time, and say, yeah, your right in every post. More of a balance would be nice. But, even being in the minority is fine, even a minority of ONE is fine, if the CONCEPT that this board was founded on, of respecting everyone's point of view, and treating them with respect, is followed, because I have no problem holding my own in a discussion.

What I do have a problem with, is when every idea I put forth, is met with twisting, distortion, and argumetns based at ME, rather than that idea. Why would a post about a percieved abusive atmosphere be met with a string of people saying "oh hals's being hal again, if only he'd shut up or go away, things would be peaceful again..."

The whole idea of discussion of ideas is to expand our own point of view, not to shut down anyone that disagrees. For instance, until this weekend, I did not know that it was a "right" for workers to unionize. I still think THAT is a bad idea, but I didn't know it was a law. So, my understanding is expanded, and I have a whole new area to think about. THAT, is useful, and the info came from SF, not surprisingly.

An interesting side-note that I think people seem to overlook when saying SF and I share the same problems... I have never once claimed SF didn't know what he was talking about with unions. I have never once claimed SF didn't know what he was talking about with schools. EVERY time I make a statement, or state an idea, that SF fundamentally disagrees with, he claims I don't know what I'm talking about, and everyone should ignore me... The difference is, I want SF to use his expertise of unions and schools, to engage in discussions about how those things work, and how they relate to other things. SF just wants me to not state any idea he disagrees with.

The resounding voice from others that don't want to deal with this problem, has been to just IGNORE the person you disagree with.

With all due respect, this is the absolutely wrong way to handle someone who disagrees with you. The only way to solve disagreements, or even peacefully coexist, is to ENGAGE with those people.

Another aside, this is another thing that is extremetly frustrating dealing with SF. I spent most of yesterday where I stated an idea, and he jumped on it, and argued the whole day that I wouldn't state it was a fact or opinion... which he started a thread about today, although I wasn't around to voice my opinion there before it was locked. The point is, he never ONCE engaged in a discussion of the idea he had a problem with. Not once. His only interest was ME.

If we are to engage with people, even people we dislike, respectfully, there would not be this problem. But people don't listen. They don't try and understand (some of they, not everyone) what the other person is saying, they don't try to discuss those IDEAS, they just say "You're wrong, and I'll do everything in my power to make sure everyone KNOWS I think you're wrong, and I will do everything in my power to see that no one else engages in discussing those ideas either."

Most people do not have this problem, because of the point I was trying to make in the first post. They agree. If they agree, there's no point in shutting them down.

Me, being a minority, and one that is disliked by many people here (apparently, from the way I've been talked to recently), I am opened to being a target. And if I am allowed to BE a target, or if anyoen is allowed to be a target, the whole "lets all be happy and have fun mind expanding discussions where we don't fight" concept goes out the door.

Is SF a problem? Sure he is, and that can be proven by the fact that I have virtually no desire to post about unions any more. Oh, I want to say a lot, there's a lot being said in that thread I disagree with, and think is wrong. And I know some people want to engage in discussing those ideas, because when SF isn't around, we get to do some of that. But if he is around, and I post something, then off we go on one of his games, where I'm just trying to stay on topic, and he wants to punish me for stating if something is or isn't a fact or is or isn't an opinion or anything else that is not on the subject I posted.

But is SF the only problem? No, because people let him do that, and that is the problem.

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 12:02 am 
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At the risk of doing something hal-like, I'll try this one last time:

"Again, I'll be willing to have a real discussion about it if you can give an honest and reasonable answer to the question:

Why have you been banned from multiple boards and got so many people on this board utterly fed up with you that roughly half of them voted in favor of banning you one year ago?"


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 12:08 am 
b77 whipping boy
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yov, I was going to bring this up on the other thread before it got locked, and I was worried you would carry it over here.

The answers to your questions are completely irrelevant to the point of this thread. In the spirit of moving beyond it, though, i'll try to answer.

TORN: Banned because I didn't like the movies and said so.
TORC: Banned because I stood by Lidless and said his banning was unfair, and the mods were on a power trip.

People wanting to ban me here: Mostly because you started the poll I believe, and they don't like me. Why they don't like me, probably many reasons.

The POINT of my post here, and this thread is, however... that even IF people don't like me, and even if they HATE me, we should still be able to post together, on THIS board, and not have to worry about constant badgering and attacks EVERY TIME THEY POST.

That answer your questions? Tried to put them in the context of this thread. I'm happy to hear your ideas on what the overall problem might be that causes everyone to assume I'm the bad guy.

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 12:13 am 
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You forgot HoF.


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 12:16 am 
b77 whipping boy
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Oh, yes I did. I guess I forgot it because the ban was removed, and I was happily posting there again afterwards.

I believe it was much the same problem as I'm having here, and pointing out the inconsistancies of the moderation there. Mods don't like that. I don't remember the specifics of it though.

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 12:17 am 
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Hal I don't hate you. I have never hated you.
You just mysteriously have the inability to be able to post on a messageboard and get along with people. You don't know when to hold them and you don't know when to fold them.
I am sure in all of your entangles other people have been at fault. Yet the one common denominator in all of them is you.

Messageboards can be a pain to deal with, but it can be done. There are things that should be avoided and there are people that should be avoided. Maybe if you would stop going against the grain so much, things would be easier for all of us. Pick your battles instead of constantly battling.

Really would it hurt to try? Not all of us on multiple boards are likely to be wrong. The chances of that being the case is very slim.

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 12:19 am 
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yovargas wrote:
You forgot HoF.


And here as well. But it was also a temp ban.

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 12:22 am 
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it was not a ban at all.

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 12:27 am 
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I don't hate you either, hal. I've never been a moderator before, anywhere, until right before this all started. I find it a bit rude that some people are constantly complaining about what a horrible job we're doing as Rangers, but it's not that I don't like it enough to ban someone or anything. But the delivery of your critiques leaves something to be desired. We're human, of course things are going to be somewhat inconsistent. I'm more likely to help someone who posts calmly and nicely, again, I think it's just human nature.

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 12:33 am 
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Holby, you bring up a good point. I don't claim to be without blame. But for a very long time, I have been forced to take ALL the blame.

Then, when I was being visciously (in the internet sense, obviously not like real life) attacked for expressing an opposing view, not only was little action taken, and no hearing for far worse offenses than for the one I got (something like ten attacks were eventually edited out? while for my hearing, I don't know if anything was even edited...)... but also, everyoen was piling on with the "hal just wants to start trouble" crap again.

I'll be the first to admit, I don't handle double standards well, as I'm sure would be at the heart of what yov is trying to get at. That's certainly been the heart of bannings at both TORC and HOF.

To get back to Holby's point. What is so often overlooked, is that I DO try. There have been countless times I wanted to go at it in a symposium thread, even typed out long posts making big huge cases why someone or other was wrong (did you guys even SEE me during the election season? ;) )... but I'd more times than not drop it, because I knew it would result in a fight, and I wanted no part in that.

So yes, it's worth giving a try, and when it doesn't work, because I finally decide to ACTUALLY post, I should be able to do so without being attacked, and piled on for "instigating" fights. I just want my point of view heard and respected, doesn't even have to be agreed with.

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 12:34 am 
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Rebecca wrote:
I don't hate you either, hal. I've never been a moderator before, anywhere, until right before this all started. I find it a bit rude that some people are constantly complaining about what a horrible job we're doing as Rangers, but it's not that I don't like it enough to ban someone or anything. But the delivery of your critiques leaves something to be desired. We're human, of course things are going to be somewhat inconsistent. I'm more likely to help someone who posts calmly and nicely, again, I think it's just human nature.


For that I apologize. I did start in PMs today, and was frustrated by the time I brought it to the ranger thread... frustrated by a long string of events.

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 12:41 am 
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halplm wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
I don't hate you either, hal. I've never been a moderator before, anywhere, until right before this all started. I find it a bit rude that some people are constantly complaining about what a horrible job we're doing as Rangers, but it's not that I don't like it enough to ban someone or anything. But the delivery of your critiques leaves something to be desired. We're human, of course things are going to be somewhat inconsistent. I'm more likely to help someone who posts calmly and nicely, again, I think it's just human nature.


For that I apologize. I did start in PMs today, and was frustrated by the time I brought it to the ranger thread... frustrated by a long string of events.

You're certainly not the only one who's done it. And I'm sorry, but I'm going to help the people who are nice before the ones who are rude to me. Just a general thought, I apologize if it's off topic. :)

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 1:20 am 
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Rebecca and I are not so different.

I'd like to add something else. The problem is this: we have no mods. B77 has no mods, for a long time B77 needed no mods. We have Rangers with relatively limited power that people squawk about when it is exercised and then squawk about when it's not used. Mostly, we're secretaries and pooper-scoopers. The secretary stuff is one thing; scooping poo is something I only like to do on a routine basis for my pets and that's because they can't help themselves (well, the cat has a box he uses but you know what I mean). From adults, I expect better. So does the board - we were founded on the apparently high ideal that adults will act like adults. We need, we implore, adults to act like adults. We really do because sometimes, as seen here, the fighting reaches a point where it's not just about two people - the muck they're throwing lands everywhere and people not involved take the collateral damage. Sometimes that means taking the high road ALL BY YOURSELF. Even if the other guy is throwing mud.

There is an ignore feature on this board. Everyone save the Rangers is at liberty to use it (well, so are we, but to do our jobs we really can't). In real life, you avoid people you don't like. You can do that here too. The ignore setting is unilateral. If you really just can't stand what someone has to say ever, you can put them on your foe list and they're gone. That may seem rude, but it's far ruder to get into repeated flame wars. If mediation is impossible for whatever reason, I strongly recommend at least trying the feature out. The Rangers cannot do this for you. You're on your own.

Hal, you're complaining no one notices when you try. That's the way it is in life. Get used to it. And if you keep trying, we will notice because we will notice the change. And we'll be happy, even though we aren't going to be vocal about it. No one notices it when things go smooth. So take the silence as praise.

I think a very good guideline for everyone is this: would you say or do that to someone in person?
Another important guideline to remember is this: we are a community. Like every community, we have our cranks and our eccentrics and colorful personalities. In RL, you either accept and are accepted by your community or you leave (preferably by choice but I have seen a RL community practice banning). But that acceptance part is key and sometimes acceptance really does involve sticking your head in the sand or looking the other way or just cutting slack. It comes back to what I said about the high road. It's a hard road to take and sometimes it's so painful you wonder if it's even worth it, but at the same time, is the alternative really that much better?

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 11:58 am 
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halplm wrote:
But is SF the only problem? No, because people let him do that, and that is the problem.


Once more, I can see the ship running aground on the same sandbank ...

Hal, what do you EXPECT people to do about sf? What CAN they do? :cool:

- Tell him to shut up? Some have already done that.

- Request your Rangers to ban him permanently? We know that isn't possible. That's not how B77 works. It is very difficult on this board to ban anyone permanently, because some of you had such a problem with TORC.

As I say, on any other board, the mods would have stepped long ago and dealt very firmly with both you and sf. They'd have told him to stop behaving like the internet thought police (you do sometimes have a tendency to state your opinion as if it is fact, and while that would earn you an admonishment in other places, it's hardly a criminal offence :P ) and told you to stop reacting to him. And if both of you continued to ignore the advice of the mods, they'd have chucked you both out.

Because of the way B77 is set up, if there are a couple of posters (or three, or four) who will not shut up and leave each other alone, then it becomes open season. If your Rangers clamp down on the constant bickering, they are accused of being too heavy-handed. If they don’t intervene as some people wish them to, they are accused of taking sides, or whatever. As Riverthalos points out:

Riverthalos wrote:
I'd like to add something else. The problem is this: we have no mods. B77 has no mods, for a long time B77 needed no mods. We have Rangers with relatively limited power that people squawk about when it is exercised and then squawk about when it's not used. Mostly, we're secretaries and pooper-scoopers.


Honestly, Hal, I’m afraid that it really is only you and sf who can do anything about your antipathy towards each other.

I'm trying to think of how I have dealt with posters who have annoyed me. There haven't been many. :) I remember once that Saranthir on TORC pissed me off so much that I coolly told him he was violating the TOS, said that no doubt that the mods would lock the thread down (which they did, thus validating my opinion :cool: ) and then I chose just to disappear from the M00bie forum for weeks on end, because I simply wasn't going to waste my online time getting uptight because of some rude, sexist idiot. The upshot of all that was, people started asking where the heck I'd got to.

:devil:

So I came back. :P And was gratified to see the poster who had annoyed me so intensely act in a conciliatory manner. He knew he'd crossed a line. :whistle:

Sometimes it really is best just to walk away. Go and post in a less stressful place, go and have fun, and yes, IGNORE, a poster who is aggravating the heck out of you. They'll soon get bored of their fun.

:hug:

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec , 2008 12:02 pm 
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Sometimes it really is best just to walk away. Go and post in a less stressful place, go and have fun, and yes, IGNORE, a poster who is aggravating the heck out of you.


:yes:

Listen to Di, Hal, even if you won't listen to anyone else.

She is wise in the ways of message boards, indeed.

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PostPosted: Sat 06 Dec , 2008 5:08 pm 
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Why don't you play a game like World of Warcraft or City of Hero's? It is a great stress release.

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I still cling to hope
And I believe in love
And that's faith enough for me


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