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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 3:23 am 
bioalchemist
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This is a place to discuss the new Charter that has been put to a vote. If you have comments and questions, put them here. And please, keep it civil.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 3:56 am 
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I haven't read the proposal for the new charter and I doubt I will anytime soon.
I'm burned out by messageboard drama and I leave it up to you to find a better alternative to what we have now.

I trust that you have.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 4:17 am 
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Is this an amendment to the charter or a full on replacement?

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 4:26 am 
bioalchemist
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Full on replacement.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 4:33 am 
Kill the headlights and put it in neutral
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Holby, you've done so much for the board lately, you definitely deserve a break. As do River and Rebecca. :hug: I feel lucky beyond belief that my Ranger shift ended a couple of weeks ago. I just wish I could have been of more help to all of you.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 4:58 am 
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Holbytla wrote:
I haven't read the proposal for the new charter and I doubt I will anytime soon.
I'm burned out by messageboard drama and I leave it up to you to find a better alternative to what we have now.

I trust that you have.


Is it possible to delay discussion and any vote on this for a few weeks to let the current status of the boards be resolved and have a chance to settle?

Edit to add...
I realize this charter probably represents a significant investment of thought and effort. I think it deserves the opportunity to be heard without being overshadowed by two jury trials and the events that led to them. And as Holby referenced that is taking up many posters full attention.

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Last edited by RELStuart on Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:00 am 
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RELStuart wrote:
Holbytla wrote:
I haven't read the proposal for the new charter and I doubt I will anytime soon.
I'm burned out by messageboard drama and I leave it up to you to find a better alternative to what we have now.

I trust that you have.


Is it possible to delay discussion and any vote on this for a few weeks to let the current status of the boards be resolved and have a chance to settle?


I think we can do both. I think we should do both. Now.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:10 am 
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Agree with vison.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:23 am 
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As do I.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:26 am 
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My head hurts so I have to agree with Rel on this one for now.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:34 am 
bioalchemist
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If I can do both anyone else here can. ;)

I don't foresee the hearings, either of them, lasting for the next ten days.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:36 am 
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I voted "Yes."

I have one suggestion re: the "simple majority" for a vote on actions of a Ranger or a poster. Since many of the Board's member's do not actively post, may I suggest that when a vote such as this is imminent, a board-wide PM be sent out, informing posters of the vote taking place, with a link.

After a specified amount of time (one week?) the vote should be decided based on a majority of total people who voted, not a majority of the entire board. This may be what was intended, I just want it to be clear. In other words, if 32 people vote, 22 "yes" and 10 "no" - then the vote passes.

My head is a bit fuzzy right now, so this is probably what you meant anyway!

AND...THANKS FOR ALL THE WORK YOU HAVE BEEN DOING. ALL of you!


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:41 am 
bioalchemist
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That's exactly what it means, js. It's decided by the number of votes cast, pure and simple.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:44 am 
Kill the headlights and put it in neutral
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As a note for anyone hesitating to read the replacement "charter"...don't worry. It's three short paragraphs long. ;)


And, speaking from the point of view of a jury member on one of the current hearings, I am sure that we will judge the proceedings based on what the rules were at the time of the offense, since it would be unfair to do otherwise. So I think that we can proceed on the Charter revision while still holding fair hearings for both members in question.


ETA: Okay, five short paragraphs. :blackeye: But very, very manageable.


Last edited by elfshadow on Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:46 am 
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I realized that after I posted it...like I said, my head's a bit fuzzy this morning. ;)

I still think a PM alerting everyone to the vote would be a good idea...

And I think the new, simplified Charter will greatly improve the board and enable it to run much more smoothly and without any "incidents" like the one we are currently experiencing.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:52 am 
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With apologies for those who invested in all of us to put this together and respect to those that have disagreed with waiting I have voted no. I think that watching how the current process plays out could result in ideas that should be dealt with in the Charter.

In addition there is no provision in the Charter for any change to adapt to future circumstances (via amendment or other means).

Also there is: No longer an age limit to join or post here. No longer a limit to how many usernames one may have. No longer denied or restricted access to new members to the TOE forum. No longer express (or any) prohibition on posting porn. I could go on but I would encourage people to compare the two charters. Frankly I like the specifics listed in Article 2 of the current Charter. I don't like the vague references to a "culture of respect" that Rangers have the ability to punish people for violating. I prefer that we have listed rights and responsibilities so people know what is expected of them.

I would request that people look at the current charter and compare it to the new. I think a better revision of the old could be done. It is my hope that people do not vote for this new charter out of mere reaction to the current troubles here on the board. I agree some modification may be appropriate but there are some substantive issues that should be addressed in a new charter that appear to be missing.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:58 am 
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REL brought up some of the issues I was thinking of, but in more elegant ways than I could word them.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 5:59 am 
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RELStuart wrote:

Also there is: No longer an age limit to join or post here. No longer a limit to how many usernames one may have. No longer denied or restricted access to new members to the TOE forum. No longer express (or any) prohibition on posting porn. I could go on but I would encourage people to compare the two charters. Frankly I like the specifics listed in Article 2 of the current Charter. I don't like the vague references to a "culture of respect" that Rangers have the ability to punish people for violating. I prefer that we have listed rights and responsibilities so people know what is expected of them.


Those things should be dealt with in a set of by-laws, which could be drawn up and modified as needed. The Charter itself should not be dealing with specifics (IMHO)

A charter is more or less the overview of how things run. By-laws are for day-to-day shit and can be modified much more easily.

Let's get the new one in place and then by-laws can be drafted and voted upon.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 6:15 am 
bioalchemist
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^^^^
What I was thinking. Except my brain's about to shut down and I couldn't phrase it.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 6:17 am 
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I understand the desire for this, and I certainly understand that emotions are running high right now given everything that has been going on here, but I can’t help but think that this is a knee-jerk reaction to the current situation that is going to cause more problems than it is going to solve in the long run. I’m all for simple, just like everyone else, but this seems far too vague and leaves too many things open to question. I know the current charter is hopelessly unwieldy, and I admire sites that have simpler TOS’s, but the main distinction between b77 and those other sites is that none of them, as far as I know, aspire to be democratic. Unfortunately, that’s why our “rule book” got to be so complicated. But, it is what it is, and for a reason, even if the reason seems ridiculous right now.

Of course, someone once said that the constitution is not a suicide pact, and that’s about what the charter looks like right now. But from what I can tell, the only real problem with it is that it does not have a viable means to enforce it's own rules against people who would ... of shit, let’s be honest, against Hal. Can’t we just write a new clause into the damned thing - call it the Hal Clause: “The members of the board reserve the right to impose an indefinite ban on Hal whenever he pulls one of his goddam shit-fits”, and be done with it.

I’m only being partly facetious here. I don’t see anything in the Charter Lite that allows for more enforcement of the rules other the vague statement that the Rangers will have “broad discretion” which I predict will result in endless bickering that will make this current blow-up seem like a Sunday School picnic.

Again, I understand the desire for this now, and good grief I respect and sympathize with what the Ranger’s have been going through. You guys have my utmost respect and support and approval for everything you’ve done, which has been far above and beyond anything that was ever required or expected from you. But I beg that you all just step away from it for a while (Hal is confined to the Bike Racks, let him sling shit all over the walls in there if he wants, nobody has to read it, or just turn off his posting rights altogether - nobody is going to object at this point). Take a break from it for it while and let everyone cool down before we make such a big decision.

Anyway, the poll is up for ten days, so I guess there is time to see what will happen, but, I’m sorry, I voted no. I hope that doesn’t make me an outcast around here. I just think it is a mistake. Sorry.

:hug:

ETA - just because I voted against this does not mean I would vote against anything else in the future. I am certainly not married to the current charter.

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