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 Post subject: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 10:39 am 
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The Rangers have discussed halplm's posts since he returned to the board following a three month ban. Within a short space of time we found a renewed pattern of hostile or confrontational posting. Moreover he has broken the terms on which his return was tolerated.
One quote from many is enough to summarise the problem:


Quote:
I don't give a damn if my posting stiyle upsets a lot of posters here




Here are the relevant conditions of the last hearing against hal.




Quote:
Penalties

The jury was split 3-3 as to the duration of the penalty to be imposed. The charter states that in the absence of a majority, the lesser penalty considered shall be implemented. By that rule, the jury rules that hal shall:

A) Receive a three month ban from b77.

B) For the three months following his return from the ban:

---1) Be banned from the Symposium.
------ a. Replying to threads from the Symp outside of it would count as breaking the ban.

---2) Be required to put the poster sauronsfinger (SF) on ignore and ------ a. not reply to him
------ b. post towards him
------ c. post about him (even obliquely - i.e. "a certain poster" or "the poster I must not name")
---3) Following the three month Required ignore, he shall be put on a three month parole with the poster SF. If, at any time during those three months, the rangers or three or more posters feel that a personal dispute that may disrupt the board again has started, a three month required ignore of SF can be reinstated to be followed by another three month parole. Hal shall be allowed no more than three such paroles. If he breaks all three, he shall be required to put SF on a permanent ignore and follow the rules outlined under 2) as above.


On his return halplm immediately created a signature text referring to the member he had the dispute with that led to his banning. This was in defiance of the terms of his return. He received an immediate 24 hour ban for that. When he refused to change it he received a second 24 hour ban. He continued to refer to the other member in subsequent posts. He then brought a complaint to the Rangers about Symposium opinions expressed by the other member, thus violating two conditions at once. He has had both friendly advice from fellow members and official warnings from Rangers and rejected them all. We cannot see his continued presence here while he posts in such a manner serves any purpose other than to sow discord.

For violating the terms of his return the Rangers will impose a six month ban from the board for halplm and a re-imposition of the same conditions upon his return. We would hope after that interval halplm will have learned to contribute to the board in a respectful and constructive manner.

Here is a selection of warnings and requests to hal from Rangers in the short time he was back.

first ban for referencing sf in his sig, 24 hours by vison on Wed May 13, 2009 6:46 pm
viewtopic.php?p=350698#p350698

second ban for refusing to alter sig, 24 hours by vison on Thu May 14, 2009 7:50 pm
viewtopic.php?p=350950#p350950

warning by tinwe on Mon May 18, 2009 9:40 pm
viewtopic.php?p=351227#p351227

Pips asks him to stop on Mon May 18, 2009 11:24 pm
viewtopic.php?p=351260#p351260

warning by vison on Mon May 18, 2009 11:38 pm
viewtopic.php?p=351267#p351267

warning by vison on Mon May 18, 2009 11:52 pm
viewtopic.php?p=351273#p351273

warning by tosh on Thu May 21, 2009 4:44 pm
viewtopic.php?p=351571#p351571

warning by tosh on Sun May 31, 2009 8:37 pm
viewtopic.php?p=352256#p352256

warning by tosh on Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:53 am
viewtopic.php?p=352307#p352307

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 11:16 am 
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Thanks to all the Rangers for your thoughtful work. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 12:55 pm 
Just keep singin'!
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Thanks, guys.

I really wish Hal could have come back with a different attitude and been able to change his behavior.

:(


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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 1:14 pm 
DomiKNITrix
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Thank you. Good work.

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 4:48 pm 
Waiting for winter
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It should perhaps be noted that the decision was unanimous among the Rangers. For myself, I could not see that we had any alternative.

Hal has sent an email to the Rangers asking that the decision be put to a board-wide vote as is his right under the Charter. We are working on getting that ready.

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 5:26 pm 
bioalchemist
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:grouphug: for the Ranger team.

I wish we could stop going through these fits. But it's not really entirely up to us, is it?

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 6:02 pm 
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
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tinwë wrote:
It should perhaps be noted that the decision was unanimous among the Rangers. For myself, I could not see that we had any alternative.

Hal has sent an email to the Rangers asking that the decision be put to a board-wide vote as is his right under the Charter. We are working on getting that ready.


I think that's a very good idea. Making it a board-wide decision takes some of the heat off of you guys.

Thanks for taking the time to deal with it!

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 6:40 pm 
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Took the time to check into this and will say here what I have said in the Ranger thread: halplm is not entitled to the vote.

He is not "restricted" from a forum, he is BANNED from the entire board.

He is NOT a member in good standing who has some restrictions on his posting, he is not allowed to post here at all, nor to interact here at all in any way with anyone. To allow this vote is to make an egregiously dangerous mistake.

There is absolutely no point whatsoever in banning anyone if they can turn around and cause the board to be disrupted once again while they sit off somewhere watching. We might as well go straight to the vote in the first place - and we decided not to do that long ago. Over the same poster, I might add. Have we done all this work for nothing?

I am staunchly and irrevocably opposed to this.

I feel no "heat". There is nothing to feel heat over. We came to the only proper conclusion and acted as we must. Anyone who disagrees, I would like to have a pm from, explaining why. I don't want this thread or any thread taken up by such responses, but would be quite glad to have the pm.

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 7:31 pm 

Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
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You folks are certainly free to do whatever you want to, but I'll just say that when I wrote the Charter I definitely intended that that provision would apply to a situation where someone was banned from the entire site, and with all due respect to vison, I can't imagine how anyone could realistically interpret it any other way.


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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 8:32 pm 
bioalchemist
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My understanding is the same as Voronwe's, FWIW. I don't think hal should be let back in to cast his vote; I think we can assume he'd vote to overturn the decision and count that accordingly, but if hal is demanding a vote then I say we do it and let the chips fall where they may.

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 8:44 pm 
Per aspera ad astra
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First thank you for the decision.

Let the vote take place, I am so very sure of the result that I actually think it would be better for hal if it took place so that he could pester less (not that I'm not sure he will find another issue to fight for or against, or whatever emphasis is on fighting).

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 8:49 pm 
Waiting for winter
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I can’t see what harm will be done by having a vote at this point. Hal is banned, he cannot post here, he cannot vote, he cannot participate in any discussion, he cannot influence any outcome in the procedure. And I cannot imagine that the outcome of any such vote would change the results of our decision. And even if it did, well, I guess that would tell us something useful about the nature of this board.

I don’t see this as taking any heat off of anybody - I honestly don’t feel any heat from the decision and wouldn’t care if there were any. I do see a legitimatizing effect from it though. This board was formed, to some degree, out of a deep seated suspicion of power held by a few, so allowing the members to review this decision seems appropriate to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 8:53 pm 
bioalchemist
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Well, assuming the poll is placed in the Business Room, hal will be able to see it. You have to sign in to post, but for most of this board you don't have to sign in to read. And if you aren't signed in, you can see the results of a poll (if you are signed in, you can only see it after you've voted). So he'll know.

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 9:10 pm 
Waiting for winter
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Yes, he can see it. He can see any of the forums that are open to the public. But he cannot sign in, he cannot post, he cannot vote, he cannot participate. As such he cannot disrupt any proceedings taking place here. But there is no reason why he shouldn't know what is happening here.

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 9:17 pm 
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Still opposed, but can't stop it, obviously. What use it is to have Rangers ban someone is utterly beyond me - why don't we go direct to a vote every time?

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 9:27 pm 
Just keep singin'!
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Not quite sure why a twice-banned member should have any "rights" under the Charter, but if Voronwe says that was the intent of the clause, then so be it.

I don't think there is any "heat" on the Rangers for this decision, either.

I would ask that if this is going to be put to a board-wide vote, it be done quickly and with a minimum of fuss.


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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 9:44 pm 
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
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Well, when I say "heat" I mean exactly what tinwe said: it legitimizes the Ranger's decision. It shows how the board as a whole feels, just in case someone would want to say that things were unfair. Then you can't have the type of accusations leveled against the group of Rangers that happened one of the last times we had a dispute.

And I think it makes sense to have the Rangers act first. What if the person didn't want to contest the decision? Then it's a done deal. Also, you could have an abuse of power. (I am definitely not saying that has happened here!) But you could have that type of thing happen, and the person and the board needs to have a recourse for that.

I don't see any harm in allowing the board to vote. The ban should stand while the board is voting and only be lifted if the board votes to overturn the Ranger's decision.

Create the vote thread, allow 2-3 days or something, and then be done with it. And I would have you guys decide all of those particulars.

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 9:45 pm 
bioalchemist
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Speed. If you've got someone who's just making a mess, sometimes banning or sticking them in the Bike Racks is the fastest way to contain them. Then put it to a vote. But that's only required if the restriction is longer than a week.

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 10:12 pm 
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Halplm certainly is entitled to this. He has been restricted from one or more forums for more than two weeks. There is no other way to interpret that part of the charter.

The vote also must go on for a week according to the charter.

I'll go ahead and start the thread so we can get this over with as soon as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Halplm
PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun , 2009 10:12 pm 
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A vote concerning the banning of a member? Here? For shame.

<sarcasm>

C'est la vie.

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