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Statement on www.Board77.com

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Eruname
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Posted: Tue 01 Mar , 2005 2:19 am
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I think what you wrote was entirely appropriate.

I'm trying to put together the events that have happened and if I finish it I'll gladly try to get it to you so you could put it up on that page if you wish.

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Tue 01 Mar , 2005 10:50 am
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Well done! It was very necessary.

Let those that want answers and info get in touch via that email addy there (to the admins here). Let the admins answer those emails and send the information as Eruname is putting it together (details as per her thread) out if they ask for it. Those that ask to be invited, let's start invite threads for them but unless they're on the banned list with the normal timeframe.

(Need more admins? I'm sure a bunch of people would volunteer and we could 'split' jobs for the time being)


I would advise against posting publicly anything further though. Do we really want more 'tarnish' on the board 77 pages we're going to build? I don't think so.

And let's work towards moving over to our place by agreeing on governance issues and once those are in place we can begin moving threads over and leave a lot of pain behind.


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Rodia
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Posted: Tue 01 Mar , 2005 10:59 am
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Alandriel, I'm home until sunday so I can be an emergency admin.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Wed 02 Mar , 2005 12:28 am
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Just read the announcement on the board77 site - I understand people are hurting - but this is sad. Just sad.

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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 02 Mar , 2005 3:58 am
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What's sad truehobbit?

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Mahima
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 11:10 am
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I think if we define Board 77 to be an off-shoot of TORC, that is what we will remain. And I agree with what Guru said.


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Silwen
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 11:14 am
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There goes my resolve of keeping out of it all...

I totally agree with Guru, Hobby and Mahima.

If you intend to make b77 a forum in its own right, it is not helpful to spend all the space on the statement-page complaining about TORC. I know you're angry, to put it mildly, and that that was the reason the board came about in thefirst place. But the statement as it is now implies that everybody here will only be bitching about TORC.

I was invited here and am glad I have found some of my TORC friends who have been absent from there for a while. But I have had nothing to do with the trouble on TORCand still don't. It has never concerned me - I only heard about the problems through friends or friends of friends, fo rthe most part. I would not like someone to think I am here only because I want to complain about another board. Unfortunately, that's just the way it appears.

The statement makes a very bad impression on someone who may be interested in b77 and has nothing to do with TORC and the issues concerned. If it is your intention to cause more trouble, I guess you're certainly heading the right way. I suggest the statement lose its TORC focus. Of course it should be mentioned how the board came about, but get away from the complaints about another board. I guess not everybody here would like to be put in one pot with the majority who hate TORC or at least make that impression.

The way things are now, reading the statement, b77 is just an off-shoot of TORC and, I might add, a cheap copy of it. It's still developing, of course, and I hope it will become a board in its own right, independent of other boards.

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 1:53 pm
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It's not a copy of TORC. It is what we make of it, and we (if I may humbly say) are what made TORC great.

Steve's statement on B77 had two purposes: 1. To make people aware of what B77 was, as opposed to any preconceived notions. 2. To tell people exactly what happened last weekend.

It was done because we have no other place to put it that can be seen publicly.

It's not a defining statement. I imagine when this mess is sorted out it will be heavily revised. It was kind of an emergency, and I think it's appropriate for this situation.

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Leoba
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 3:41 pm
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Silwen (and Mahima and Guru) make a very valid point.

I can understand why 'we' have felt a need to explain ourselves but I would suggest that the statement lingers on Board77.com for a short number more days only. The people who wanted to know followed the link, the information is out there on TORC now (or was last time I looked). Perhaps we could consider taking it down after the weekend?

It really isn't fair on the people who don't want to be drawn to taking sides.

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 3:45 pm
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I agree with that, although I still think it would be good to keep somewhere, possibly with a link to it on B77.com for a while longer. There are still plenty who have no idea what's gone on but want to know... Nar in the m00bies community thread right now, for instance...

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Rodia
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 3:46 pm
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Damnit...you know, that's true. The stuff needs to be known but b77 should be kept separate. Its goal is no longer to reach TORC admins as it was during the petition...it kind of looks like we're feeding off of their mistake now.

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Leoba
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 3:49 pm
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We are. :(/:)

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Silwen
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 7:32 pm
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halplm wrote:
It's not a copy of TORC. It is what we make of it, and we (if I may humbly say) are what made TORC great. ... Steve's statement on B77 had two purposes: 1. To make people aware of what B77 was, as opposed to any preconceived notions. 2. To tell people exactly what happened last weekend. ... It was kind of an emergency, and I think it's appropriate for this situation.

I know that it's the same people who can't help but do what they have done before. But if you are so intent on being different then it would be a good idea to change. But this is a minor matter and not of concern anyway.

It is far more important that it be made clear that the statement is not the idea of everybody on the board (and whose idea was it anyway to make the members list public on TORC? That's an invitation for banning! Shows frankness, but wasn't a wise move.). I don't think that the way it is now it will improve the situation and makethe admins of TORC make any decisions you will be happy with. Revision is necessary - but by the time you get to it, it will be too late because it has probably encouraged more animosity.

It would have been better (or, it will be better once a new version is written after a decision has been made by whoever, Ted etc.) to not name TORC at all in the statement. Keep it neutral. the ones who know what it is about will know who's meant. Anybody who has nothing to do with it won't really miss out on much and shouldn't be bothered with it. And people who join might feel unwelcome in such an environemnt that is so anti-TORC.

It being an emergency does not excuse such a hostile statement. And why wasn't it enough to talk about the problems amongst yourselves in private and not making it public? It would have been over and done with, nobody would have had to bother with any more problems. I can assure you that the statement wasn't helpful.

Point 1 (as you listed above) would have been achieved well enough without mentioning TORC explicitly and giving so many details. To point 2: I've heard so many details by now I am getting confused. "He said this, and he said that, then we said this ...." And it all proves nothing either - it is impossible to take sides judging from the details. I have the impression that neither side is being very objective and telling us everything anyway. I am sure there is some misquoting going on too. And most importantly: nobody is trying very hard to keep emotions out of it (a little effort has been put into it, but not nearly enough to be convincing). This is always a mistake when dealing with such important matters involving many people, and especially when you want to make a public announcement.

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 7:42 pm
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how was that statement hostile?

The entire point was to make it public. We had no other way of letting people on TORC who were curious and confused know what exactly was going on.

The facts were being hidden from them, and this statement was to give the facts, nothing more.

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Leoba
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 7:48 pm
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Hostile, because the TORC situation was not about B77.

It was about a number of people being subject to dodgy admin practices and of whom the majority also happened to be members here. Board 77 was dragged into this by TheAngel in the first instance and then by Ted. By responding all we do is take ourselves to the name-calling level. :)

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Rodia
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 7:54 pm
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Yeah...I think we should give facts, but facts about b77. Not about TORC.

It's possible to describe this board as a good place without also describing TORC as a bad place. I think we should try and do that.

Lidless is busy now, as far as I know, so maybe we can try and come up with an alternative message here? One that does not mention TORC, save perhaps as the member-source, but that makes clear the purpose of b77.

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 8:05 pm
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Yes, by all means, come up with a statement about B77, but that doesn't change the purpose of THAT statement.

I'm actually getting a little bit annoyed at people here wanting to separate B77 from "the events."

People want to know what B77 is, and they want to know why we're so pissed off at Ted and IE and how TORC runs.

Why do they want to know that? NOT BECAUSE WE TOLD THEM, but because TED told them, and IE told them, and Oreo told them and The_Angel Told them, and who on earth knows who else.

Maybe B77 isn't pissed at them any more, and B77 certainly won't be pissed at them in the future. However, that doesn't change the fact that these "events" were a direct attack on Board 77, and we needed to respond in some fashion.

You want to put it behind us, separate B77 from it, so that it was just "That group of B77 members" or whatever, fine, but I don't think some members of "that group" will be sticking around very long if that's the case.

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 8:08 pm
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I see the need to clear the air and state our side of the story so long as it matters. Which should be another day or two. At that point anyone who needs to know more will have had a chance to see it, and if not, can ask one of us about it.

I refuse to let anyone outside B77 define us, or try to. And that includes by reacting to every stupid thing that gets said about us.

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Rodia
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 8:20 pm
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Thing is...we want to give people information. But posting that announcement that says a lot about TORC is...well, just as bad as IE opening a locked thread to post her opinion of b77 in it. Remember how she did that? It doesn't matter that she was being petty and we're trying to expose the truth- the effect can be very similar. I think it would be enough to define b77 without quoting what happened on TORC...people can always email...and it just looks much friendlier. Otherwise we're open to the same accusations we cast at Jon &co.

Let's talk about what we are first, and not about how TORC wronged us...

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 8:23 pm
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How will people email?

How will they know who to email?

How will they even know there are people to email?

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