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Emergency Exemption

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Should we be open to special cases?
Poll ended at Thu 10 Mar , 2005 4:32 pm
Yes - we should make allowances for those unfairly banned and/or homeless and hurting
  
33% [ 5 ]
No - we must always stick to the rules
  
60% [ 9 ]
Not sure
  
7% [ 1 ]
Other (please explain)
  
0% [ 0 ]
Total votes: 15
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halplm
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:49 pm
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Completely OT...

Farawen, that avatar is so unfair... I can't argue with someone that looks like that, even if they don't really look like that now. :)

Ok, back to topic...

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:50 pm
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Ax - what I'm saying doesn't have to relate to TORC. It could relate to anyone who has been treated in such a way that this board would be a great benefit to them over that extra week of waiting. My point is that we can get be virtually sure the person will be accepted here in a much shorter time frame, even if the current timeframe is designed to give 100% certainty and is fine for non-urgent cases. I definitely think it's worth the very small chance that the decision will be incorrect in the urgent cases.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:57 pm
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For those saying that the extra week of waiting and missed discussions shouldn't matter, as an example consider what it would have felt like for a prominent m00b to be told they were going to have to sit out the first week of reactions after the release of one of the LOTR movies. Having to catch up on all those initial reactions some time later would be a big loss compared to having been there to share the experience with everyone at the time.

Fara, perhaps you could paste over any comments from that thread you feel are particularly relevant. :)

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 6:00 pm
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
Ax - what I'm saying doesn't have to relate to TORC. It could relate to anyone who has been treated in such a way that this board would be a great benefit to them over that extra week of waiting.
Thus the potential for abuse: the exceptions become the rule, as this could easily apply to everyone.

HOWEVER:
I think we should shave two days off the current and upcoming polls. I could live with taking three off. I think the community as a whole, including the newer folks, can rise to the occasion and put in their input in that shorter time.

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Farawen
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 6:08 pm
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halplm wrote:
Completely OT...

Farawen, that avatar is so unfair... I can't argue with someone that looks like that, even if they don't really look like that now. :)

Ok, back to topic...
:oops:

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Rodia
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 6:12 pm
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Iavas I understand what you mean by the need to react. But is that what we want to be? A lifeboat rushing to salvage people? In that case we should just open! (and I'd love for us to open. :P) We're closed now...for reasons...it seems to me like we're going round in circles trying to make this fact of being closed more and more uncomfortable for ourselves. Maybe that's a good sign that we do need to open as soon as we can.

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 6:13 pm
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Rodia wrote:
A lifeboat rushing to salvage people? In that case we should just open!
Exactly why I don't want to open. Well, one of two reasons. But that's that other thread... :)

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 6:19 pm
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Quote:
Thus the potential for abuse: the exceptions become the rule, as this could easily apply to everyone.
But that is why I suggest that an exemption requires a group of people to come together to propose the idea. Then give a day or two for everyone else to say "Actually, I'd vote no, we need a proper poll". The chances that noone would register a no within the first day or so, but then over 9 days the no's would be the majority, are just too small to worry about IMO. And the chances that there is a lone veto-er who just happens to be away, while noone left behind has any clue of any issues existing, are also pretty negligible.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 6:27 pm
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Quote:
A lifeboat rushing to salvage people?
I don't think it's about what B77 should or shouldn't be.. it should simply be a case where a group of people agree that due to special circumstances a person deserves a place here quicker than usual (assuming they are confident that the person would have no problem getting through a normal vote).

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Leoba
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 6:38 pm
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
Quote:
A lifeboat rushing to salvage people?
I don't think it's about what B77 should or shouldn't be.. it should simply be a case where a group of people agree that due to special circumstances a person deserves a place here quicker than usual (assuming they are confident that the person would have no problem getting through a normal vote).
I still don't understand how you would define the special circumstances.

We are not TORC's lifeboat. That's not why we started to invite new people in here.

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Farawen
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 7:04 pm
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Word on what Leoba said.


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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 7:24 pm
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Iavas--

I'm thinking about the group sponsorship idea. Not as a replacement for the process we have, but an amendment to it.

It would have to be a substantial number. I'm thinking 25% of the membership at this stage, and then no vetoes of course.

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 8:20 pm
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Actually :halo: I would like to see an 'emergency exemption' plan. Now before some of you pelt me with tomoatoes ;) mark that I said plan. Not a sudden overruling of all rules that have been hashed oh no. That would lead to chaos and anarchy - and we're a democracy, not an anarchy ;)

But yes - it would be interesting to discuss how an 'emergency' plan would work and if a majority could agree on it before it gets put into action. I've done a bit of 'emergency management' in my time but certainly never without a previously agreed upon set of rules and action.

Not that I hope we'd ever need to use such a plan. And looking ahead to soon (but not too soon ;) ) when we won't have invitations anymore but rather have the board open, well - maybe it's worth to discuss just WHEN (who would have thought?! :Q ) we would active such a plan, HOW the rules change from 'normal' and WHO would take it all on.

In any case, I can't vote. For although I think my view comes closest to a yes it's with a bunch of restrictions.

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laureanna
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 9:21 pm
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People can wait a week and a half. I waited several weeks after voluntarily leaving TORC in January, not knowing about B77. We can keep in touch by email.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 12:03 am
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Quote:
I still don't understand how you would define the special circumstances.
I think there's an obvious difference between someone banned from TORC out fo the blue for their first offense, and who really wants to be here, and someone still happily posting away on TORC who may not even know this place exists.

The two situations are so clearly different that I don't see how the definition can cause a problem. But even if it was a problem, that's why I suggested it would need a group of people to ask for an exemption, to avoid a single person misjudging the situation.
Quote:
People can wait a week and a half. I waited several weeks after voluntarily leaving TORC in January, not knowing about B77. We can keep in touch by email.
Of course they can - but it's not for their benefit. Remember what I said earlier about the enthusiastic m00b told they can't share in the first week of strong reactions after one of the movies was released? No, it won't kill them, but they deserve to be part of the moment.

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 8:26 am
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Though I can understand Iavas' move and the urge of empathy, I stick with Ax, Leoba, Farawen regarding discipline in use of the rules. Furthermore, I don't care whether the people having problems on TORC are "prominent" or "unknown", all are treated equal here. If somebody has a communicative urge compared to the urge to take a leak after six beers, there's still E-Mail, IM, etc., and a simple week of thinking it over would never hurt anybody. I say that people we invite here should be intelligent and understanding enough to wait for that week.

By now b77 is popular enough that even lurkers must have noticed it, and if they're curious, they'll send a letter. If they're good, they'll write good letters. If we don't take the time to judge those people individually it would also be a failed chance to get to know them, and to appreciate their values.

And then I must add that I endorse Leoba's treatment of hamsters.


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 8:38 am
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Can I plead again for people (in any assessment of the present situation) not to assume that "everyone knows about B77"?

It cannot be openly discussed on TORC.

Not everyone is involved in IM and email networks with TORC or B77 people--or at all. I've been on the Internet for literally decades and I just last month got my first IM program going. Nor until the recent crisis did I have many TORC friends on my email lists (except for MOME, of course). Why bother when we could simply post?

Also, not everyone is willing to just ask when they see something they don't understand. (Internet people can be shy! Otherwise we'd all be starring in commercials or something.)

My point is that I would hate to see us decide, for example, that for a time we will admit only people who ask to be admitted. People may fail to ask because they simply don't know. They've never encountered the rumors (for that's all we are to most of TORC) or the URL. That is not their fault.

We should leave room in our procedures for telling people about this place and asking if they're interested. Not ideal, I know; but to me it seems cruel to wait for somebody to find us on our their own, while people all around them are being invited in.

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Teherin
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 10:07 am
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Lavas - I really do understandwhere you are coming from, but as much more eloquent people have said before me, I dont think we can just drop rules that have been agreed on, democratically, because of an emergency unless that emergency has been pre-defined - does anyone here wish to start a definition of 'emergency' ?

As alandriel suggests, perhaps we can start looking at defining a 'fast-trck' plan - I personally can see some issues with defining something taht could be as all-embracing or specific as special circumstances ...

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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 11:49 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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All I will say is that if it hadn't been for B77, I would have been at a total loss and alone during the first half of December. To be able to continue to correspond easily with people I knew rather than via cumbersome e-mails was a boon.

To be banned is like losing a loved one - and people need to be able to express their grief and have the support of their friends during that time.

E-mail just doesn't cut it.

I would suggest the following:

That we give the admins the power to immediately register a poster here if they are banned on TORC. It must be a unanimous vote by the admins, and that is the only 'emergency situation' allowed.

I trust the admins.

It's the compassionate thing to do - and I'd hate to be on a board where the rules do not come from the heart. If they don't, then the rules need changing.

This is one of those times.

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 1:19 pm
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As far as I have heard, hurt and grief was exactly the reaction of Shadowjack and Thedaimonlucifer to their bannings. Nonetheless we discussed their admittance and did not invite them. How can we assume that the admins know all the issues anybody might have with one of the recently banned? How can we forego the option that anybody might veto against someone new who is "agreeable" to all?


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