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Emergency Exemption

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Should we be open to special cases?
Poll ended at Thu 10 Mar , 2005 4:32 pm
Yes - we should make allowances for those unfairly banned and/or homeless and hurting
  
33% [ 5 ]
No - we must always stick to the rules
  
60% [ 9 ]
Not sure
  
7% [ 1 ]
Other (please explain)
  
0% [ 0 ]
Total votes: 15
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Iavas_Saar
Post subject: Emergency Exemption
Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 4:32 pm
His Rosyness
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Right now, I'm pretty saddened by the fact that someone banned from TORC for just mentioning B77 once, their first ever comment on the issue and their only ever offense, has been made to sit on the sidelines when he really deserves to be a part of the current activity/discussions. I'm not happy with the attitude from some people that 'one rule suits all'. There are such things as "special circumstances" in all walks of life, and I would like to see B77 flexible enough to accomodate that.

It's too late of course for Winged_Balrog - he's already been denied a part in the recent debate because some people here seem to think that exceptions will damage the system. I can't agree with that - I think being flexible would make the system better not worse.

So I've set a poll to see whether people would like special cases built into the invite system.

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Alatar
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 4:41 pm
of Vinyamar
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I'm saying yes, but that's because I have a vested interest. I would still be sitting in Limbo were it not for some confusion regarding my registration. However, I still think there needs to be discussion before anyone is invited. I don't believe in an "instant invite" for anyone who gets banned from TORC. As it pertains to Winged Balrog, of course I agree, but I understand where the problem is in allowing special cases. It's not practical to have a voting poll every time someone wants to make a special case, but it seems undemocratic to give a set of Admins the power to bypass the democratic rules on a whim.

In short, I agree with the sentiment, but I'm unsure about the execution.

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 4:56 pm
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Stick to the rules, I say. That's what they are for. When the Lidless banning happened I stormed from TORC and did not even know there was a Board77; and the b77 members were obviously not all sure whether they wanted to open the board (and to what purpose). Btw. Thanks to Nin and Griff and those who not only voted, but guided me in.
:love:

Board77 is known, today, and it is known as "invite only". Which means, each newcomer is accepted by public vote, which is something quite necessary (though I'm happy Alatar here "glitched" through, there would not have been a problem with his being voted in in the first place).

Justice for all is equal justice for all, that means if we make exceptions for those banned on TORC, homeless and hurting, we must accept Oreo, too, as well as Shadowjack, Daimonlucifer, etc. Where do we draw the line between "This one has deserved it" and "This one, d'oh"?!

However, I am for shortening the voting process down to a week.


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Nin
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:05 pm
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I voted like Mummpizz - I understand the recent members... but I think in the interest of the boards in the long run - it's more important to respect what we have as guidance - our very own rules.

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:12 pm
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I agree, there should be exemptions, but on the other hand, there's a reason there's voting involved.

I think the in-between action can simply be saying to Winged Balrog that the voting is a formality, and give him the date his invite should come. I think this has already been done?

As for missing out on part of the conversation... that's unfortunate to be sure, but it's already done...

The thing is, with most people I think should be invited it's like "Well of COURSE They should be invited," and the 9 day vote or whatever seems WAY too long.

But for someone that might cause problems for others, the discussion is important...

And at this point I'm going to move on over to the "opening thread" for more comments...

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:20 pm
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The gate is the only place that any control is maintained for this board. It's the price we pay for being essentially anarchic inside.

I feel bad for WB and all those who are getting kicked off TORC...but this board is not just a home for TORC refugees, or shouldn't be. To view it as such is to tie it inexorably to that other board, and that is not in our interests. Yes, that's where all of us came from, or almost all, but it's not the be-all and end-all of our lives, even here.

Think of it this way: should the US have extended a blanket policy of allowing anyone from the UK to emigrate without restriction after the Revolution, without any process, while making others wait?

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Dindraug
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:25 pm
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This has been discussd before.

Voteing no, again. Same reasons as before.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:26 pm
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Quote:
Justice for all is equal justice for all, that means if we make exceptions for those banned on TORC, homeless and hurting, we must accept Oreo, too, as well as Shadowjack, Daimonlucifer, etc. Where do we draw the line between "This one has deserved it" and "This one, d'oh"?!
I think it's pretty obvious when a banning from TORC has been done properly and has some justification (i.e. oreo), and when it hasn't.

I would suggest some sort of system where an exemption can be filed for, say by a group of atleast 5 people willing to put their name to it. Once the exemption is filed, a much shorter time is used for people to register any negative feelings they have about the poster. I would say that the chances of:

One person on B77 having veto-worthy issues with the person when no one else does.
+
No other B77ers knowing about these issues.
+
The B77er who would veto just happening to be away at that time,

are pretty slim. If there are plenty of people who would vote 'no', so as to make a normal vote on the person a close one, there would be enough of them around to speak up during the shorter process. If anyone posted saying "I would vote no for this person if it went to a poll", perhaps that could be enough reason for a normal invite poll. Otherwise, if there are no objections to the person in the first day or so, the chances that serious issues would crop up later are small enough to be negligible.

I definitely think it's worth that slim chance - that the person has any enemies, and those enemies are somehow unable to make their feelings known at the time - to be able to get particularly worthy cases here quicker.

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Farawen
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:30 pm
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No. Absolutely not. I don't see a practical way to execute this. Who defines "emergency exemption"?

Also, as inviting as the idea seems to those of you who have been banned recently, b77's purpose is not to take in everybody banned from TORC just because they were banned from TORC. We're reducing this board to something that it just is not.


PS: There's a discussion re: invite process going on in this thread, I think it may be of interest.


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:36 pm
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Quote:
I feel bad for WB and all those who are getting kicked off TORC...but this board is not just a home for TORC refugees, or shouldn't be. To view it as such is to tie it inexorably to that other board, and that is not in our interests.
But if this board is *not* tied to TORC, why is there still an invite process at all? Every person who comes on here is judged based on their time at TORC. So TORC is *always* an issue while we continue to have invites.

We're already making sure this isn't a home for TORC stalwarts, but in the opposite situation it doesn't apply?

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Leoba
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:37 pm
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Farawen wrote:
No. Absolutely not. I don't see a practical way to execute this. Who defines "emergency exemption"?
I agree with Farawen.
Quote:
Also, as inviting as the idea seems to those of you who have been banned recently, b77's purpose is not to take in everybody banned from TORC just because they were banned from TORC. We're reducing this board to something that it just is not.
I agree with Farawen.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:38 pm
His Rosyness
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Quote:
I don't see a practical way to execute this. Who defines "emergency exemption"?
The group of 5, say, that come together to file for it.
Quote:
Also, as inviting as the idea seems to those of you who have been banned recently, b77's purpose is not to take in everybody banned from TORC just because they were banned from TORC.
I'm sorry but B77 does serve the purpose of being able to heal those unfairly banned (not just banned), who would really like to be here with people who can help them. To deny that B77 does this is just wrong IMO.

Last edited by Iavas_Saar on Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rodia
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:39 pm
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My heart says bring them all in immediately but my head agrees with Fara- it's impractical. More messy discussing to deal with...

I know people are hurting but if they are told exactly how the process works, and if it's explained to them that they are being treated just like everyone else, then I don't see why waiting ten days would be so bad. It won't kill them....and I'm thinking, maybe someone who can't accept that we have a certain way of working things out is not the right person to invite? If they want to be here they will have patience enough...it's not like no one keeps in touch with them about it.

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Farawen
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:40 pm
Far out
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
But if this board is *not* tied to TORC, why is there still an invite process at all? Every person who comes on here is judged based on their time at TORC. So TORC is *always* an issue while we continue to have invites.
We're discussing the invite thingie in this thread. Head on over there. :)


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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:42 pm
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TORC is only an issue vis-a-vis invites because it is currently the frame of reference people have to judge them from. We already have a handful of non-TORC people, or people who had gone inactive on TORC months or years ago, asking to come in. The proportion of such will only increase with time. Eventually TORC will cease to be a factor at all.

And to be honest, if someone in invites said "I think so and so is awful because of these activities they've engaged in" or "So and so has always been great, doing things like XY and Z" where the invitee did them is not relevant, is it?

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:42 pm
His Rosyness
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Fara, I've read that thread but it's about broader issues overall. One of the admin told me to start this thread. :P

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:44 pm
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Iavas-

That admin was right. This needs to be discussed here. And thank you for bringing it up.

And if the vote goes against me, I won't cry too many tears, because that's how things happen when a board like this is new. We will survive. We just happen to have different ideas about what makes that survival easier...

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:44 pm
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I so can see all the sides of this argument... unfortunately I can't put them together in any coherant solution :scratch

*wishes he were smarter*

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:46 pm
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Arguments where you have competing goods are the worst. :(

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Farawen
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 5:46 pm
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Iavas, try the last two pages in that thread. There's a post of mine from earlier today on page 6 that proposes freezing invites and ultimately getting rid of the whole invite process.
Ax wrote:
Eventually TORC will cease to be a factor at all.
Hopefully sooner than later.


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