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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov , 2016 4:47 pm 
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Frelga wrote:
Also this came up

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It's like voting at all and in general, not just Trump. If you do vote it shows you consent to and agree with the process and outcome, but if you don't vote it shows you consent to and agree with the process and outcome.

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Sat 26 Nov , 2016 1:08 am 
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LalaithUrwen wrote:
Much better, thanks! :D

As for responding to that, the Democrats definitely have a lot of work to do. I'm still a registered Republican, but I'm pretty disgusted with that party right now. I'm only marginally feeling more favorable about the Democrats at this point. What I found is that most people I know personally who voted for Trump are either not racist (not exactly anyway, though they did put other issues above the racism they perceived in Trump, and I have a major problem with that) or they are blind to their biases (as we all tend to be until they get pointed out to us) and didn't recognize any serious problems with Trump and were more concerned with other issues. I don't think I know anyone personally who supported Trump openly because of their own racism.


Regarding racism. An interesting perspective I found on Cracked.

Quote:
But what I can say, from personal experience, is that the racism of my youth was always one step removed. I never saw a family member, friend, or classmate be mean to the actual black people we had in town. We worked with them, played video games with them, waved to them when they passed. What I did hear was several million comments about how if you ever ventured into the city, winding up in the "wrong neighborhood" meant you'd get dragged from your car, raped, and burned alive. Looking back, I think the idea was that the local minorities were fine ... as long as they acted exactly like us.

If you'd asked me at the time, I'd have said the fear and hatred wasn't of people with brown skin, but of that specific tribe they have in Chicago -- you know, the guys with the weird slang, music and clothes, the dope fiends who murder everyone they see. It was all part of the bizarro nature of the cities, as perceived from afar -- a combination of hyper-aggressive savages and frivolous white elites. Their ways are strange. And it wasn't like pop culture was trying to talk me out of it:

It's not just perception, either -- the stats back up the fact that these are parallel universes. People living in the countryside are twice as likely to own a gun and will probably get married younger. People in the urban "blue" areas talk faster and walk faster. They are more likely to be drug abusers but less likely to be alcoholics. The blues are less likely to own land and, most importantly, they're less likely to be Evangelical Christians.

In the small towns, this often gets expressed as "They don't share our values!" and my progressive friends love to scoff at that. "What, like illiteracy and homophobia?!?!"

Nope. Everything.


The "racism" isn't about skin color, but about the difference between city and country. People of various skin colors in the country get along fine, even though that is where all the racism is supposed to be. It's the city folk they fear.

"When you go visit the big city, stay out of the bad neighborhoods."
"That's racist."

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Sat 26 Nov , 2016 1:36 am 
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I do think it is accurate to say that a lot (not all, by a long shot, but a lot) of what gets called "racism" is more about cultural differences than actual "racial" differences. And I do think it would help a lot if the language we use in this kinds of discussions more precisely reflected that. That would go some way in helping the various "sides" communicate with each other, instead of past each other.

That said, whatever you wanna call it, it's still a lot of shitty "they're different than us so they scare me" bigotry so fuck that bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov , 2016 5:37 pm 

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A surprising choice for UN ambassador:
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2016/1123/With-Nikki-Haley-pick-Trump-sends-different-message

Quote:
Gov. Nikki Haley is everything Donald Trump’s critics say he is not: a unifier, a moderating voice, a darling of the Republican mainstream. As governor of South Carolina, she’s been an outspoken opponent of white supremacists, a proponent of immigration, including properly vetted Muslim refugees.


Quote:
While the appointment of a woman with no foreign policy or national security experience has mystified foreign diplomats, she is more palatable than what many were bracing for, according to Poilitico.

“Diplomats were expecting Trump to send an angry white man to the UN,” said Richard Gowan, a senior fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations. “The mere fact that Haley is not an angry white man is good in terms of political optics.”

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Wed 30 Nov , 2016 4:42 pm 

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One last article I thought was pretty balanced and insightful:
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2016/1128/From-guns-to-birth-control-Trump-election-flipped-script-on-American-fears-video

Quote:
A sense of mounting dread among some Americans about the looming Trump presidency has been met with retorts that this was how many conservatives felt during the eight years of Obama – when legal marijuana took root, same-sex weddings were given equal legal status as heterosexual marriages, and the Affordable Care Act, with its individual mandate, became the law of the land.

Mix in a sense of uncertainty – about the man, his agenda, and how much what he said on the campaign trail means – and these weeks of transition have become explosive.

“For the four previous presidential elections, there’s been a pretty good sense of what the winning candidate was going to do as far as a broad policy agenda, but it’s hard to get a good read on President-elect Trump,” says Christopher Larimer, a University of Northern Iowa professor in Cedar Falls, who studies political behavior. “Yes, he’s criticized immigration policies, but on the domestic front it’s been a little more uncertain.”

“Add to that rhetoric that was more extreme than other recent presidential elections, and it’s making it harder for voters to figure out and understand what, exactly, [government is going to do] for the next four years,” he adds.


It goes on to talk about how more Democrats now fear Republicans than in the past, and vice versa, and how fear of Trump seems to be driving various behaviors, from increased sign ups on the healthcare exchanges, to stockpiling of IUDs to calls for vote recounts in some states. Apparently, similar fears led Republicans to buy more guns during the Obama presidency, while gun manufacturers' stock prices are now down.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Wed 30 Nov , 2016 5:00 pm 
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The glaring difference here is that the people then were afraid of things that other people were doing, like smoking dope and having sex. The people now are afraid of violence directed at them and of being prevented from doing things they want or even need. Like marrying the person they love, wearing clothes appropriate to their beliefs, or getting medical care. That's not balance.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Wed 30 Nov , 2016 5:10 pm 

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I wasn't talking about the fears being equally balanced, but the reporting - which points out that not all sides of the political debate have the same fears and worries, or think that exactly the same solutions should be applied to problems like healthcare. And just as Obama didn't "take away" people's guns, this administration and legislature may not do everything that people are currently afraid of. Frankly, I don't see some things, like protection for homosexual marriages, disappearing - there is just too much support in the mainstream now. Sounds like some advocates for reproductive rights think that feeding the Trump panic is also not an appropriate response right now.

Quote:
Likewise, advocates for women’s issues are seeking to calm women who are going out and stocking up on birth control, fearing the worst.

“It was really interesting how that took hold in the atmosphere, this kind of panic,” says Heather Boonstra of the Guttmacher Institute, an advocacy group for women’s reproductive rights. “But I don’t think there’s a reason to panic quite yet.”

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That no river is a river which does not flow.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan , 2017 2:35 am 

Joined: Fri 10 Aug , 2012 4:42 pm
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Did anyone see this, um, event? The only word that seems to suit it is "fiasco." Or perhaps "circus"?

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2017/0111/Did-you-catch-Trump-s-press-conference-It-was-a-real-production

Quote:
Trump ran his press conference like a show, with applause from staffers and multiple speakers. He flattered and barked at the assembled journalists in turn, at one point shouting down a CNN reporter who was trying to ask a question.


Quote:
. A more restrained PEOTUS was not in evidence. He acted as he always has, with colorful asides, snipes at rivals, and lots of bombastic adjectives. Meet the new Trump, same as the old.


Quote:
... Trump staffers and officials were sprinkled around the media assembled in Trump Tower, hemming reporters in. Their applause at key moments was surprising to anyone used to the quieter combativeness of a typical White House press conference.


So much for hopes that President Trump might be more palatable than his persona during the campaign.

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It is this we learn after so many failures,
The building of castles in sand, of queens in snow,
That we cannot make any corner in life or in life's beauty,
That no river is a river which does not flow.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan , 2017 9:24 am 
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aninkling wrote:
So much for hopes that President Trump might be more palatable than his persona during the campaign.

Did anyone actually hope that?

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan , 2017 2:39 pm 

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Yes. His first post-election speech - the coming together one - was good, and there were some signs of reasonableness, like the meeting with Al Gore about climate change, all of his contacts with President Obama (including the promise to at least consider keeping parts of Obama's legislation), and his disapproval of Congressional Republicans when they tried to get rid of the ethics oversight group. Not to mention that people's behavior is sometimes different when they are trying to win something. Trump is such a showman that it's been hard to know what's underneath.

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It is this we learn after so many failures,
The building of castles in sand, of queens in snow,
That we cannot make any corner in life or in life's beauty,
That no river is a river which does not flow.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan , 2017 2:50 pm 
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I know this - when a person behaves like a total asshole, it's because they ARE a total asshole. It is not in the nature of someone who is not a total asshole to act like one.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Fri 13 Jan , 2017 4:25 am 
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Ugh. :(

And I am trying to decide if I'm going to drive to Columbus (1.5 hours away) this Sunday to march in the Women's March. I can't make the one in DC, and they're having this one the weekend before for those of us who can't and to send off those who can. I suspect that, in the end, I won't go because I don't have anyone to go with and the one person who would go with me is not someone I want to spend that kind of time with. So yeah.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Sat 21 Jan , 2017 9:35 pm 

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Well, Lali, it looks like the women's march was a success, at least in terms of turnout. Apparently, they've turned it into a rally because there were too many people to march.

So far, it looks like Trump's budget is standard Republican fare - eliminate ("privatize") the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and the National Endowment for the Arts, increase spending for the military (why, exactly, considering Trump's isolationist agenda?). What's really worrisome, at least to me, is that he's already shut down all tweets from the National Park Service because they had a couple of unflattering tweets comparing the number of people at his inauguration to Obama's. The Park Service seems to rely on tweets for a lot of things, including emergency communications, so that wasn't trivial. They're back up again after an apology from the Park Service, but it looks like Trump's thin skin is going to permeate everything. The Trump administration has also eliminated pages on climate change, LGBT and something else I can't remember from the White House pages.

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That no river is a river which does not flow.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Sat 21 Jan , 2017 11:18 pm 
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Apparently there was a protest in Ottawa, too, but I only heard about it after it was underway.

Edit: You can read about the Ottawa protest here - and meet Doris Lessard, a 94-year-old who's annoyed that she still has to protest against the same issues that she's been protesting since the 1960's. Go Doris! :horse:

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Sun 22 Jan , 2017 5:41 am 
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There were marches on all continents (though the one on Antarctica was rather short to be called a march - just a quick stroll down the beach). I participated in the Oakland California march, 60,000 to 80,000 people, well behaved, well spoken, well meaning. I just hope they keep the glow for the next few years.

EDIT to update: Now they are saying it was 100,000.

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Last edited by laureanna on Sun 22 Jan , 2017 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Sun 22 Jan , 2017 9:52 am 
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:Q There was a march in Antarctica? Cool!

Check this out too: some of the best signs and slogans from marches around the world

Quote:
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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Sun 22 Jan , 2017 4:54 pm 

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I'm afraid those types of signs are just what I didn't like about these marches . To make a real change, a protest needs to have a clear, concrete goal (e.g., don't pass a law restricting abortion), and a way to know that you've achieved that goal. Trump isn't going to leave the White House, and his tweeting is a trivial matter. (sure, some of his tweets show he's an ass, but you can personally be an ass and still pass good laws). I don't know that these unfocused feel-good marches with vague goals are likely to make much of an impact. My biggest hope is that their size might make Congress think twice about passing certain types of laws. I have my doubts that they'll have much effect on what Trump does.


btw, there's a news story about the shutdown of the Interior Dept's tweets and suppression of dissent on the CS Monitor today. Yesterday, the information had mostly originated on a tech site.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2017/0121/What-just-happened-with-the-Interior-Department-s-Twitter-account
Unfortunately, this and the seeding of Trump's first press conference with clapping staffers seem to be heading in an ugly direction.

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It is this we learn after so many failures,
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That we cannot make any corner in life or in life's beauty,
That no river is a river which does not flow.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Sun 22 Jan , 2017 5:57 pm 
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Eerily familiar, having grown up in the Soviet days and watching as Putin crushed the last vestiges of free press in Russia.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Sun 22 Jan , 2017 8:00 pm 

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I don't doubt it, and I suspect he'd love to be able to run the government under his absolute control, like his companies. But I think (and hope) the situation is a little different, and he may be in for some frustration. The U.S. press may now mostly be under the control of a few corporations, but so far, they haven't shown themselves very friendly to Trump.

And the Bush presidency was also known for stifling dissent from government employees and suppressing information.

But hey, we're getting a new holiday for patriotism, yippee, hooray. Though I'm not sure the people whose mortgage insurance taxes were about to be cut under the Obama administration will find much to cheer about. Amazing, how fast Trump can move from crowd-pleasing rhetoric about helping the average American, to cancelling something that would.

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It is this we learn after so many failures,
The building of castles in sand, of queens in snow,
That we cannot make any corner in life or in life's beauty,
That no river is a river which does not flow.

- Louis MacNeice, Autumn Journal


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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Sun 22 Jan , 2017 8:31 pm 
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We get a holiday? I missed that.

I hope the freedom of press prevails - so far the press is resisting but it's been ONE day. But the playbook is blindingly, achingly familiar, although I sincerely hope that Trump won't go the Putin route of assassinating and imprisoning dissenting journalists and bloggers.

P.S.: regarding the protests - I haven't read any of the linked papers yet and I don't know what they say, but this tweet thread links to some academic works on the effectiveness of protests, starting here https://twitter.com/zeitzoff/status/822896245744209921

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